How to Get Your Kids to Listen More and Argue Less with guest Cynthia Klein
About this Episode
Are you tired of arguing with your kids? Do you feel like every other conversation with your child ends in a conflict? Are there days when your kids just won’t listen? Imagine a relationship with your child that was full of cooperation rather than conflict. On this episode of Brainy Moms, Dr. Amy and Teri interviewed Cynthia Klein, parenting coach and author of the book, Ally Parenting: A Non-Adversarial Approach to Transform Conflict into Cooperation—a book that I believe should be on every parent’s bookshelf. Cynthia teaches us specific tips for changing how we communicate with our kids to encourage them to listen more and argue less.
About Cynthia
Cynthia is a parenting coach, family happiness expert, and author of the book, Ally Parenting: A Non-Adversarial Approach to Transform Conflict Into Cooperation. Cynthia earned a child psychology degree at UC Berkeley, is a former elementary school teacher, holds a Training and Human Resource Development Certificate, California and New Mexico teaching credentials, numerous parent education certificates, and life lessons gained from raising a successful daughter who values her mom’s opinion.
Connect with Cynthia
Websites:
https://bridges2understanding.com/
www.allyparenting.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cynthia.klein.bridges
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthiajklein/
Mentioned in this Episode
Link to buy Cynthia’s book, Ally Parenting: A Non-Adversarial Approach to Transform Conflict into Cooperation
Sign up for Cynthia’s Workshops: https://bridges2understanding.com/workshops/
Sign up for Cynthia’s monthly newsletter: https://ally-parenting.com/free-chapter
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Dr. Amy Moore:
Hi, and welcome to this episode of Brainy Moms, brought to you today by LearningRx one-on-one brain training centers. I’m your host, Dr. Amy Moore, here with my co-host Teri Miller, coming to you today from Colorado Springs, Colorado.
We are excited to bring you a conversation today with our guest Cynthia Klein. Cynthia is a parenting coach, family happiness expert, and author of the book, Ally Parenting: A Non-Adversarial Approach to Transform Conflict Into Cooperation. Cynthia earned a child psychology degree at UC Berkeley, is a former elementary school teacher and is certified in adult education and many parenting education programs. She’s here today to share wisdom from her unique parenting formula, that turns conflict into cooperation by changing the way we communicate with our children.
Teri Miller:
So glad to have you here, Cynthia. And you’ve got an amazing approach to parenting, lots of inspiration for us. So let’s start out by giving our listeners a little background.
Cynthia Klein:
Great. It’s so great to be here and talking to you ladies. So I’m Cynthia Klein and my background is I majored in child psychology, but I really am an educator. That’s my heart is, so I went on to be a teacher. And as I was an elementary school teacher, I realized that my true mission was how to create a more connected, happy relationships, because I didn’t have that with my mother. my mother was born in the ’20s. They didn’t know how to listen. They didn’t know how to communicate. They didn’t even within the family at all.
Cynthia Klein:
And I can remember being a teenager, and one time, I had quite a few conflicts with my mother, mother-daughter conflict thing was big. And so I can remember getting upset with her again and crying. I can remember being on the bed and my mother out in the kitchen talking to my dad as though nothing had happened. I remember that viscerally, I was so pain. Like, “I don’t want this, I want something better.”
Cynthia Klein:
So I think when I shifted from being a teacher to working with parents, I had a daughter, she was five years old, was like, “This is what I want to do, to really work on my relationship with my daughter.” Because I didn’t have a sample of it. Right? I didn’t know how to do it. So sometimes you might have a parent educator who grew up in a very loving family, which mine had its issues. Right?
Cynthia Klein:
And so I come from a point of, I had a vision of a close relationship with the teenage daughter. That was my end point. So of course I had a daughter and she was very challenging. And so my whole vision was, what do I do differently? How do I change so that I can create what I want to, because I didn’t have it. I think that’s really crucial. I didn’t come from that background. I came from, what do I need to change? So I really see parenting as a great opportunity for personal growth. And I’ll tell you, my friends told me I was nicer after I had my daughter, because I was developing myself. I was learning how to be more caring, how to be more compassionate, how to listen. And so I’m a better listener to my friends as well. So anything people read about in my book, they can use with their friends, their partner.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I love that. And I love that you made that distinction too, because as I was reading that, the first thing I thought was, this is not just applicable to relationships with your children, but as a teacher educator, we could totally teach teachers to communicate this way with students and really see a more cooperative environment.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. And I had that when I was in elementary school teacher, I used to do classroom meetings. That was my training, how to do that, how to build the connection with kids. And so I’ve done that with children in the classroom and yes, you can do it in many different areas of life.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. In the work environment with coworkers, in any kind of a collaborative situation, PTA meetings, whatever, when you’re a part of a group, I think it’s just really valuable tactics.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Absolutely. So let’s start with the basics. You describe three different parenting roles that as parents we take on, depending on the challenge or the situation, they’re not static. Right? They kind of move with whatever the decision needs to be made or whatever the situation is. Talk a little bit about those three roles and what that looks like.
Cynthia Klein:
And I love this, I learned about the concept of three roles from Michael Popkin, who’s my mentor amongst others. And I find when I coach parents, so I’ve been working with parents about 29 years now. And the very first thing we have to think about is, okay, who’s responsible for solving this problem that’s arisen. Whether it’s doing chores, whether it’s doing homework, whether it’s how late the kid’s going to be out. So we have to really be clear on that, whose problem is this to solve?
Cynthia Klein:
So if it’s something that you want your kids to do and they don’t want to do, prime one is limitations on things on the internet or whatever. You think, “Okay. I feel this is important. There’s a safety reason for it. There’s a health reason for it. This is important that I set some rules about this.” And you clearly tell your kid that, and then you use director role strategies to make sure it happens. And they don’t have to agree, sure not. A lot of parents, they try to talk their kids into trying to agree with them with their rule because they think then they’ll obey and then they won’t get mad at them. No, when you’re a director, kids won’t like it, just know that. And it’s okay.
Cynthia Klein:
They need that security to know that there’s sometimes you can just say, “Okay, it’s time to empty the dishwasher.” That’s also a director role. And to make parents try to soften it, “Well, when you think you could do it…” And they’re too afraid, I think.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Or they ask, “Would you please?” If it’s not an option, we don’t ask. Right? We tell.
Cynthia Klein:
Yes. Yes. And in fact, I’m doing next week, a free workshop actually, for parents and nine to 14 year olds, all about giving requests that lead to arguing and what you can do instead. So I should talk about that later.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Absolutely.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. Because that’s a big thing again. Yeah. So you’re directing, you’re telling them what to do and I teach how to do that very respectfully. But there’s some situations where it’s really a joint problem, which is it impacts everybody. Or couple people. Like getting out of the house on time, that’s a joint problem. It isn’t yours to direct. See, too many parents get into, “All right, put your shoes on, time to go. Have you done this? Have you packed your lunch?” They’re like the director, directing, whereas they should be first collaborating, coming up with a plan and then maybe using a few director strategies.
Cynthia Klein:
But like you were saying Amy, about asking kids to help you. You don’t ask them when it’s actually a joint problem to solve. Doing chores is a big one that I’m really keen on. Parents collaborating with their kids, coming up with a collaborative plan. Whenever you do a collaborative plan, this is key, is to know it won’t necessarily work. Don’t think that, “We made a plan. We posted it. Why aren’t you doing it?” Making the plan’s easy, the follow through is hard. So you might do a collaborative problem solving and then you might have to use some director role strategies just to make sure there’s follow through.
Cynthia Klein:
It’s not like one thing or the other, so. Because even when your kids have kind of said, “Well, I’ll do this and that,” do they really want to take out the dog, take out the trash. They don’t really want to. But you want to teach them that they’re responsible, this is a family, this is a unit, we need to figure out together how we’re going to solve these problems. It isn’t like, so if one person doesn’t cook, everybody’s impacted. So that’s a collaborative mindset. And as you were saying before about asking kids to do something, that’s not a collaborative mindset. That’s thinking, you’re acting as though, “Oh, this is my chore. Could you help me do it?” And then kids feel like they can say, no.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. And I think they also then feel like, “Well, that’s your issue? That’s your problem, mom? You take care of it. I don’t really care about it. It’s not my issue.” And so then there’s not this invested like, “No, that’s my responsibility. We all agreed. That’s my responsibility, so.”
Cynthia Klein:
And even if they don’t embrace that philosophy, even though we’ve gone through the planning together, you’re going to have to get back together about this, probably over and over and over again. You’re going to have to. Whenever you do a plan, you’re going to say, “Okay, we’re going to try it for a week and we’re going to get back together and we’re going to see, is this working or not?”
Cynthia Klein:
So what happens so often, you do a plan, it starts to fall apart. And then parents start to come in as the director. So they lose that perspective that it’s a joint problem. And then they get mad at the kids. “You said you were going to do this and you’re not.” And it just gets messy. So just know whenever you make a plan to also put on the calendar, “Okay, we’re going to do this for a week or two weeks and we’re going to get back together on this day. We’re going to see how it’s going.” That helps them get that sense of responsibility. And you’re still going to have to use some director strategies. One of my favorite ones is the after then or the work before play strategy.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Tell us about that. What does that mean?
Cynthia Klein:
And so I even write a story about myself and my daughter concerning picking or cleaning the bathroom. So of course, we got together and we decided who’s going to do what chores. Did my daughter want to clean the bathroom? No, but it’s important. Right? It’s important for her to learn that skill. I don’t want to let her go out and have a roommate and she doesn’t know, she’s not used to cleaning the bathroom and who wants to live with her. Right? So remember that when you’re having your kids do chores, you’re training them for them to realize that this is what you do in life.
Cynthia Klein:
So the work before play or the after then, this is a director role strategy you use when, strategies you only use at certain times, that’s important to understand. This is when your child is asking to do something that you’re okay with them doing. So this is the mindset, they’re saying, “Can I…” Fill in the blank? The story I tell in the book is my daughter says, “Can I go to Beth’s house?” Okay. This is, she’s a teenager. And I’m thinking right away. “What hasn’t she done yet?” Go through the list, right?
Cynthia Klein:
Okay. Now I’ve got an after then situation, that I can pull up. Okay. And then I think, “Oh, she hasn’t cleaned the bathroom yet.” Okay? So she’s wanting something, she’s wanting the play. I’m fine with that. So I say, “After you clean the bathroom, then you can go.” Now, notice the exact phrasing, after you, what it is, then you can, what they want to do. Very important. A lot of parents try to switch it. They put, “Oh yeah, you can go to your friend’s house after you clean the bathroom.” You see the difference, they hear, you can go to your friend’s house is the first thing. And then they tune out the rest.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah. They focus on that then. Right?
Cynthia Klein:
“You said I could go.” Right? That’s what they’ll say. They are so clever. I’ll tell you.
Teri Miller:
That’s really good. That’s such a good, minor distinction that can make such a big difference in communication and outcome.
Cynthia Klein:
It’s huge, huge. So that’s why I’m really strict when I teach this to the parents, you must say, so I say, “After you clean the bathroom, then you can go.” Now, do not expect your child to say, “Oh, okay.” Now I had a strong willed child. I deal with parents with strong willed kids. So she didn’t say, “Oh, all right, mom, I’ll go do that.” No. Okay. Always complain. “Why do I have to do that now? Why didn’t you tell me sooner? Everybody’s going there.” Just know that’s going to come at you. And you can just say, “I can handle that. I know what to say.” “After the bathroom, then you can go.” So you just repeat it or you shorten words. I encourage parents to shorten words instead of this expansiveness. Right? They want to [inaudible 00:14:15]
Cynthia Klein:
Right. Shorten, shorten, shorten, then [inaudible 00:14:18]. So she’ll complain again. And before I put it in the book, I had her read it. “Is this how it went?” “Oh yeah. That’s how it went.” Okay. But they always want to, she would blame me. Why didn’t I remind her earlier? So the tendency is it’s your fault. So don’t bite it. Don’t defend yourself. Do not do that. Don’t say, “Well, if you had done that earlier, then you could go right away.” Do not do that. Don’t shame your child. Don’t defend yourself. You just are like, “Okay. Cynthia said, just stick…” There’s a narrow little path. So she complain again, “Bathroom first.”
Cynthia Klein:
Guess what? She cleaned the bathroom. Now, you might have to go check it to see how thoroughly it was cleaned because she’s wanting to go off and do something and that’s okay. You need to go home and check. Had one dad and two 15 year old boys that were really strong willed. So I was teaching him this after then. And he had to repeat it five times. He did exactly what I told him less and less and less. And then the kids go, “Oh, all right.” It’s like, he was stronger. And the kids knew that he wasn’t going to change. He knew his script and he wasn’t going to change. He wasn’t going to argue. So be careful, don’t argue, don’t defend yourself. I hear parents doing that all the time, arguing and defending yourself.
Cynthia Klein:
So after then, again, it’s not a manipulation, that simply they’re saying, “Can I do this play thing that you’re okay with?”And you’re thinking, what haven’t they done yet? So that’s like a director role after you’ve done some collaboration. So you see, you use all roles at different times.
Cynthia Klein:
And then the third role, ah, this is a supporter or confidant role. And this role is when it’s your child’s problem to solve. Director role, you’re the one thinking, “They don’t want this. I need to direct them to do it.” Collaborator, it impacts everybody. So we have to come up with a decision together. Supporter is this is their problem to solve. Not for me to jump in and tell them what to do. This is a very hard role for parents to play.
Cynthia Klein:
Let’s say your child’s having struggles with a friend. Okay. And you are itching to tell them what to do. You know however, it’s best if you have in your mind, “This is my child’s problem to solve.” And if I can be there as a support for them to vent to as much as they want to, maybe will come up with ideas, maybe not. But then it helps them use their brain and develop their brain as they talk about it aloud. Like we go to a therapist, right, as a person who knows how to listen. So being a parent who I learned how to be a supporter, I didn’t know how to at the beginning. So that’s why I can teach anybody. I didn’t know how to be empathetic. I didn’t have empathetic parents, but to learn how to respond so that they feel comfortable coming to you whenever they need to, to me, that was the greatest skill that I wanted to learn. And it is really paid off, my daughter’s now 33, married and moved a distance away, wants me to move near her. That says something, right?
Dr. Amy Moore:
It sure does.
Teri Miller:
Goodness. Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. And I know with her, she’s very strong willed, she does not want my advice. She doesn’t want me to tell her what to do whatsoever, but she will call up vent about something. And I know my role is to be there so she can do that. Not to tell her what to do. As soon as you tell kids what to do and you’re not supposed to, they will shut down. And what happens? I work with parents of teens. The kids have totally shut down because they have been blocking communication, has been kind of not supporting them in their decision making process.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So when I’m not sure whether my kids want my advice or not, I actually ask. Like, they’ll come in, they’re mad about something. And I’ll say, “Do you want me to help you solve this problem? Or are you just venting?”
Cynthia Klein:
That’s good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And they’ll tell me, “I’m just venting.” And then I can sit back and relax and just love them through it. Right? But then I have to go into kind of a collaboration mode, if they want help solving that problem.
Cynthia Klein:
So here’s the thing is, they will ultimately make the decision though. Right, Amy?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Sure.
Cynthia Klein:
Okay. So, “Have you considered, what are some ways?” So you’re actually still a supporter because a collaborator is you come up with a decision you both decide on and [inaudible 00:19:49].
Dr. Amy Moore:
Oh, okay.
Cynthia Klein:
Okay. Collaborator, we’re going to agree on this decision. So everybody has to agree to it. So when you’re a supporter, you have no input. You have to really make it that it’s up to you to decide what to do. I’m not going to tell you what to do. It’s up to you. So you see that’s a different mindset.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So you can still share suggestions if they want them, but that’s still being supportive if they’re ultimately choosing whether to follow those or their own.
Cynthia Klein:
Yes, and it’s helpful to let them know ahead of time, say, “We can share ideas. I want you to know that you will make the decision and I’m totally honoring whatever decision. You don’t have to do anything that I think of, it’s up to you.” Because I’m seeing situations where, let’s say a child has to do some volunteer work. I’ve seen this. And the parents come up with ideas, and the child decides, but somehow the way it’s been presented, they’ll end up saying, “Well, you told me to do this.” And they’re mad at their parent. So you have to be very mindful about when you present possibilities, it doesn’t feel like you’re kind of saying, Well, this is what I think you should do.”
Teri Miller:
That’s good. Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Can you give us an example of what that language sounds like?
Cynthia Klein:
Right. Well, even if you say, “Have you thought of this?” I have such a strong willed child. I only have one, but I’ll tell you, I went to my parent educator because I needed help. And she said, “Well, your daughter’s equal to three kids.” So Because of she had some trauma happen to her and a lot of the stuff was happening to her. So to just kind of say, “Well I’m not sure which one you choose. Here’s some possibilities.” Even saying, here are some possibilities versus have you thought of. I don’t know. Just the, have you thought of, is to me a little bit more directing, like you should think about this, rather than, “Well, I looked up and I saw there were some possibilities. I don’t know which one you’re you’re interested in.”
Cynthia Klein:
So yeah. And each child’s different. Like I said, I have a very strong willed daughter, to this day. Yeah, when she got married, it was not, “Mom, what do you think?” No, it was like, “Here’s what you can do for me.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Nice.
Cynthia Klein:
At that time where some mothers are like, “Oh, excited. I can help my daughter plan their wedding.” No. She told me what to do. So that’s what I’m dealing with. So that’s why my language is very careful. I’m very mindful of things that I say, because in fact, she’s on a trip right now and I thought I would try something. She was saying she’s just about packed. And I said, “Oh, did you bring a hat?” Now, I would never usually say something like that because the underlying message of did you pack a hat is, you didn’t think about it. I had to ask you because you didn’t think about that. So I normally wouldn’t say that, I’ve learned not to. And I did. And the irritation in her voice was so palpable. Like, “Well, yes.” Like, “How dare you even infer that I not pack a hat.” So you see, this is what I’m dealing with. So when I tell parents, it’s like just think about the words in the language.
Teri Miller:
Right. I love that. My mom used to say, “You’ll want to,” and then tell me the directive.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. What I always heard was, you should. And so it’s, don’t should on me.
Teri Miller:
Well, the fact that my mom thought she was softening it by saying, “You’ll want to write your thank you notes the day after Christmas, you’ll want to.” One day I woke up and went, “How do you know if I’ll want to do that or not?”
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. I had the, you shoulds all the time as well, Teri. My mother to her dying day, which was you should have.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. And I know it’s with good intent in heart. And I know that I have badly carried that forward. So I love your message. That it takes so much intentionality to change what has been very, very normal, what we’ve received and then what we’re passing on. And I think that’s so important. You’re saying, be aware, you may need to do this differently than what you’re just… What you’re doing needs your reaction.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. It’s like I think, what is the end result you want? So I had an image, I wanted a close relationship with a teenage girl. Okay? So that’s a pretty difficult thing to have. That doesn’t mean we didn’t have conflicts, but I wanted it where there was not this underlying angst. Because that’s what happens, that get hurt, hurt, shaming, blaming, humiliation happens, because that’s the way humans have been raised from the beginning of time, that control, manipulation, shaming. Right? And so what happens when you say those words, you should have? Why didn’t you, how many times do I have to tell you? Over and over and over again, it hurts the relationship. So you’ve got this foundation of hurt.
Cynthia Klein:
So then when they’re teenagers, explosion happened over and over again. And you’re going, “What’s going on?” Rather than irritation, “Well, why can’t I go there?” And then it’s over with, which is what I really worked at so that the irritation would come up, be gone and then we would continue on and a good connection with each other.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
One of the things I love about your book is that you spend some time talking about how we have to shift our mindset and get rid of the idea that, well, kids should do what we say because we’re the parents. And about, when we look at how the brain develops that we have the cognitive capacity to make these changes and how we communicate because our brains are fully developed. Our prefrontal cortex is fully developed, where our child’s is not. And so even though some of us have the tendency to think, “Well, our kids should be the ones who change.” They don’t necessarily have the same capacity to do that we do.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. Right, right. And that’s where the parents get frustrated because they keep looking for their kid to change. And that is just not… That you’re giving up your power when you do that. So when you try to change your child, you’re trying to change something outside of yourself, which is very difficult. And actually when parents start to look at, “Okay, what have I said, what’s the impact. And you know what? I want a different impact. I want a different response. I don’t like that response.” So they start thinking, “What can I think say or do differently, so I’m going to get a different response.” That’s a position of power. Not trying to make your child change. Yes. That’s a big thing because I did a lot of that inner work, boy, I did a lot.
Cynthia Klein:
I used to be elementary school teacher, I was a substitute teacher. Boy was a good substitute teacher because I had that stern nature. And I had to learn that didn’t work. Didn’t work with my daughter. I’ll tell one little story. I tried when she was little, I was reading a book about, one of the strategies to get your kid to take over their dishes. Right? She was maybe four or five. And it said, one of the strategies was to say to them, “Well, every time I have to take it over because you haven’t, then I’m going to charge you nickel or a dime for doing that.” I thought, “Well, I’ll try that on my daughter.” She burst out crying. “I’m never going to have any money.”
Teri Miller:
Because she knew she wasn’t going to do it.
Cynthia Klein:
That’s right.
Teri Miller:
She was going to get those taken away.
Cynthia Klein:
That’s right. That strategy wasn’t going to work with her. So I worked I used other strategies rather than trying to control and manipulate her through some sort of a punishment or reward. That didn’t, that doesn’t usually work that well.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So what strategy did work for your [inaudible 00:29:20]?
Teri Miller:
Yeah. That’s what I’m wondering.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. “The dish.” Just reminder, “The dish.” That’s all.
Teri Miller:
Small words. Shorten your words. I love that.
Cynthia Klein:
And I did that when she would leave the towel on the floor in the bathroom. That’s very typical. Right? Because they aren’t thinking it. So be careful of not thinking, “Why don’t they pick it up? It’s right there, they’re just being so careless, so thoughtless.” So we have to be careful about all the negative thoughts we have about our kids, that they’re bad and kids feel it. So I just said to my daughter, because I thought I don’t want to be negative with her. I said, “Jen, it really is better when the towel’s hanging up and it’s drying, right? Yeah.” “Yeah.” “And I know that you’re just so busy. You’re leaving the bathroom. You’re not thinking about it.” So I wasn’t blaming her. I was just saying, “I know that isn’t on your mind. How about if I just say something quickly just to remind you so that you can go and hang it up.”
Cynthia Klein:
So I’m doing it with love and care and my job as a parent is to teach, part of teaching is repetitive motion, over and over again. So I said, “How about if I just say towel and to remind you?” “Oh, okay.” So because it was done in a nice way. Not blaming, you’re not accusing. You’re not thinking, “Well you should,” there’s a should, right Terry?
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
“You should pick up your towel. I shouldn’t have to tell you.” All of that parents go through. Ugh, yick. Instead I thought, “My job is to remind her.” So I would see it on the floor and I’d just go by her room and I’d say, “Oh towel.” And she’d say, “Oh I forgot.” She would get up at that moment and hang it up. There wasn’t hurt, there wasn’t resentment. I wasn’t putting her down, the shaming. So each time I would just say, “Oh towel.” And then one day I noticed the towel was not on the floor, it was hanging up. And I went in and I said, “Jen, the towels hanging up.” And she said, “Yeah, mom, I’ve been doing it for a while. You just didn’t notice.”
Cynthia Klein:
So there is an example of, with care and love, simple reminder is often all the kids need because when you start adding on the shaming, then what you’re doing is they feel bad. Then their natural reaction is to protect themselves and maybe do revenge and hurt you back in return.
Teri Miller:
Goodness, this is so good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I love that.
Teri Miller:
Oh, I’m soaking it up. I’m thinking of all the ways I screw it up and how, oh, I want to be different. I want to do different.
Cynthia Klein:
The thing is, when you’re going to change. And what I recommend parents is to say to their kids, “I realize I’ve been doing it this way, and that’s kind of what I knew, that’s what I grew up with. And I’m realizing that that probably doesn’t make you feel very good. So I’m really going to work hard now to instead, I’m just going to say one word, not going to make you feel bad. So just so you know.” So tell your kids you’re changing. Tell them why, so that they aren’t confused. Like, “What’s going on here?” Because then they’re hearing, “Oh mom, dad, they’re growing. They’re changing.” So you know what? They’re acknowledging that, that means I can acknowledge my weakness and look at it as well and grow and change. So you’re building a culture in your family of acceptance of weaknesses and then wanting to move on and to improve one’s life.
Teri Miller:
Nice. Yeah. I want to go ahead, Amy. You had a question too. I have a big question too, I want to get to.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Well, I wrote down a quote from your book that I just loved and you said, “Flexibility and open-mindedness are key to interacting successfully with your children.” And I think that can be super hard for parents, right? To be flexible, to be open minded, to be open to the fact that, “Okay, we’re going to create this plan and if it doesn’t work, then let’s adjust.” Right?”Let’s collaborate and create a different plan.” Or, “If this word didn’t work, it’s okay, I’m going to try something else. Or I’m going to repeat it a few times until it does stick.” And so I think that we have to be willing to grow and learn, like you just said, as part of this process, if we want to have a cooperative environment and not an adversarial environment, right?
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. That’s getting away from the fear that if I don’t control things are all going to fall apart. That’s so much a parenting is fear based that I must be in control. So if you understand there’s certain things that you’re going to be a director about, and based on your values, you’re going to have certain set rules. Like one of mine was, “When you are out, you must answer the cell phone when I call.” That was a really strong rule that I had. Because at one time she didn’t and I was freaking out. So you pick those certain rules and those are guidelines. And then the other things you’re fluid. You work on them. Because you’re teaching your kids how to have dialogue and how to have discussion about appropriate things.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Let me clarify. I want to ask about going back to that supporter/confidant role, as opposed to collaborative, as opposed to director role. I want to ask, how do you understand, how do you know as a parent, which role you should be stepping into? Here’s my example, 17 year old son, summer before his senior year. This may or may not be true right now, maybe. 17 year old son, summer before his senior year, he had incompletes on two classes this past year, even though he’s a sharp student, very social, he just didn’t get the work done, which put him into summer school.
Teri Miller:
The school has called me. He’s not showing up. I’m not right there all the time. I’m a working mom. And so I’m not right there to hold his hand, to get him to that summer school program at 8:30 in the morning. And he’s not showing up. I think he’s gone once. How do I know if this is a director role? And then also, then you get into the sticky thing of, what if both parents aren’t on the same page about what that role is? So I’d love your input on this. Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
Well, I work a lot with couples and I want to tell you that most couples are not on the same page. And so I kind of help them try to come to a middle point because it is tough when you’re not on the same page. All right. The schoolwork thing is a tough one because one of the questions you ask is, who wants the solution to the problem. So that’s the first question I would say, who wants the school work done? What would your answer be to that?
Teri Miller:
The parents.
Cynthia Klein:
The parent, right? And the school?
Teri Miller:
The school. Yeah, the school for sure, and the parent. And my son seems far less concerned.
Cynthia Klein:
Right. That he is. So sometimes you have kids that are concerned and they do want it done and they’re having a hard time getting it done. So it’s like, everybody wants it done. It’s more of a collaboration. Now, when you’ve got it, where your child doesn’t seem to care and the future, right, that’s going to happen. It’s kind of like you have to even slip into a director role, some. So that’s, if you know that, boy, if he doesn’t finish this, then there’s problems, then I need to take on more responsibility. Now, some parents might just say, “Well, I’m just going to let them suffer and see what happens.” So it kind of is based on your values as well.
Cynthia Klein:
So one couple I’m working with their daughter was at a school and it was so painful, her trying to get the work done. And it was just so painful and she doesn’t want to leave this school, but it’s a very expensive school and it isn’t working for her. Okay. So here again, who decides where she’s going to go to school? Right? And we are talking about it. And what we came up with is, number one, it costs money. Are the parents willing, and they have to pay for a whole year. They’re having to decide by July 1st, do they want to pay a whole year? And then what happens when she doesn’t succeed? Right? Do they take her out and they put her in another school and then they’re going to lose all that money?
Cynthia Klein:
But we’ve kind of come down to the director role in terms of, they are going to say, “We’re not willing to put out all that effort we had to put out last year. We don’t think that this school is a good fit for you.” And they’re going to actually present to her, coming up, and I actually have to send them an email with some empathy statements to say about kind of being the director role and say, “We’re not going to allow you to go to the school. We need to find other alternative schools and we can certainly want you to be a part of that discussion.”
Cynthia Klein:
So they’re going to kind of collaborate after she finishes getting upset with them, which she will, they’re going to collaborate on what school to go to. But they have had to realize that they need to set their own personal boundaries. “We’re not willing to go through this again this year.” So your question with your son, it may be where it’s like, “This has to get done.” And you might have to do like an after then or in order for these other things that you want to do to happen, this needs to happen, or you need to attend. It’s tough because they don’t see the future. Right? They don’t see the impact that it’s having. And so sometimes you have to kind of step in as a director. It’s not easy. I’m sure I’m gathering that it’s a struggle to come up with what to do, huh?
Teri Miller:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I would choose the natural consequence of not finishing. Right. And I would let my child know and remind my child what that consequence is going to be. If you don’t finish, you’re not going to graduate on time, but I can’t force your hand to hold the pencil to write the paper. And so, but not every family would choose that option. Right?
Cynthia Klein:
Exactly. So that’s where it kind of come to your values. Because if you’re thinking, “All right, if they don’t graduate, then they’re going to be here another year or two or three. And do I want that? Or what’s going to happen to them.” So it’s no cut and dry. It’s really weighing your values and how you want to put out. Like one family ended up moving her daughter. The school wasn’t working to doing one on one. There’s a school that they do one on one tutoring that she’s going to do that for a while. And that seemed to be a better system than trying to make her stay where she was, where that wasn’t working.
Cynthia Klein:
We actually did move our daughter out of her high school January, sophomore year because she was not going to school. It was not working. There was some social things happening there. And we ended up saying, “This is not working for you.” Because we said that she did say, “Yeah, I guess you’re right. It’s not.” But we had to make that, we had to be a director and say, “We need to find another place for you because this isn’t working.” Because she didn’t have the ability to really be able to say that. And she was actually appreciative that we did. So you see, it’s tough. There’s no one answer. So that’s what par parents ask, “What should we do?” It’s like, “You have to look at your values and your child.”
Dr. Amy Moore:
So we need to take a break and let Teri read a word from our sponsor. And when we come back, I want to talk about mom’s big butt words.
Teri Miller: (reading sponsor ad from LearningRx)
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Dr. Amy Moore:
And we’re back, talking to Cynthia Klein, a parenting coach, and author of the book, Ally Parenting. And so Cynthia, you say that there are moms big but words that make your kids stop listening. So what are those buts? I love the play on words.
Teri Miller:
It’s so good.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. So, but is one of the words. Well, what’s really wonderful the last 40, 50 years, there’s been this whole new parenting approach and trying to be empathetic and listening, right? Parents are really trained to listen and to be empathetic, right? Isn’t that an important thing. We need to be empathetic listening to our kids. And it gets kind of confusing when to be empathetic or what that means or how to do it. And so the word, but is a critical word. So when you’re trying to be empathetic, so that’s one of the things I like to talk about is, when your child, let’s say they’re really struggling with their schoolwork and you want to say, “Wow, it looks like you’re really… It looks like, not, you are, “It looks like you’re really struggling with the school work. But I know that you can do it. I have absolute confidence.”
Cynthia Klein:
Now, this is an interesting thing that I threw in here because I did an empathy. But then the problem was I said the word, but, and then I said that they could do it. So it’s kind of confusing. It’s like I had empathy, but then I kind of erased it because then I was saying, what I said afterwards was more important than the empathy.
Cynthia Klein:
Another example would be, “I see that you want to go to your friend’s house, that you really like playing with your friends. You really have a great time with your friends, but right now you need to get your chores done.” So it’s not like you need to get your chores done is a bad thing to say. However, I encourage parents to not say, but. “So you are really having a great time with your friend. You love being with your friends.” Period. So that when you’re doing empathy, they feel the empathy. It needs to stand on its own. Then you can say, “Ah, you need to do your chores first before you can go.” So just that’s one of the words, but. And we hear it all the time because whatever you say after, but is more important than what you’ve said before, but.
Teri Miller:
It kind of invalidates. So it invalidates any kind of encouragement or helping with options or anything I’ve said before when I put but in there, it invalidates it.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. Oh man. That’s good.
Cynthia Klein:
So even if you just think about that word, and so think about, if you have to say something you can say, and, I prefer a period. Because when we want to be empathetic, it’s like thinking you’re not doing it to manipulate. That’s what happens, a lot of parents do it to manipulate, “Oh, I’m supposed to be empathetic, but what I’m really wanting is for them to do what I want or to do what I think they should do.” So the empathy kind of falls flat. They don’t really feel it, they’ll get mad at you. You don’t understand, like the example I said about, “Oh, it’s really hard, but I know you can do it.” “No, you don’t. You don’t understand, leave me alone.” And you’re kind of going, “What? No, I was trying to be encouraging and you’re getting mad at me.”
Teri Miller:
Yeah. That’s important. That’s good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Well, and you have good intentions, right? You’re trying to show empathy. So, It’s just a little tweak in our language then to be able for that empathy to come across as genuine. Yeah.
Cynthia Klein:
So intention is one thing, but really what matters is the impact on the other person?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
Oh, that’s so good.
Cynthia Klein:
Let’s say you’re trying to help your child and they’re getting mad at you, and you say, “I was just trying to help.” Well, it’s more effective to just say, “Oh, okay. That didn’t seem helpful. Let me try again.”
Dr. Amy Moore:
That’s a great distinction.
Teri Miller:
Oh yeah. That’s good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So talk to us a little bit about that wall of silence and the language we can use to penetrate that wall of silence. And we see that in the teen years a lot, right? When nothing we say gets a response.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. Yeah. And there are a lot of things they don’t want to talk to you about. And I know personally that there were some things my daughter was doing that she didn’t want me to know about because she didn’t want me to think badly of her. So that’s the other thing. When you have a close relationship and loving relationship, that doesn’t mean they’re going to all want to talk to you. Because like I said, my daughter, she had some trauma happen, fifth grade, all these girls turned against her and it was really traumatic. And so she was kind of doing some things that she knew I wouldn’t like, okay. So she wasn’t about to tell me about them. So just know that being connected and close can also be a problem because then they don’t want you to know what’s going on. But I do love to talk about the communication blocks, which are things that we say that keep our kids from talking to us, that really make them not feel heard or respected. So can I talk about the communication block?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Absolutely.
Teri Miller:
Please. Yeah. And I’m taking notes like crazy, so.
Cynthia Klein:
Well, I’ll tell you, I worked hard at this. I continue to work at it. I’ve been married 34 years and I continue to work on it with my spouse. So when I’m talking about these communication blocks, you use this with anybody. And when I learned about it from Michael Popkin, my mentor, it was my very first parent education program training I had. And it blew me away to realize that when somebody is sharing their thoughts or feelings about something of their concerns. So that’s what I’m talking about now. When you see your child struggling or they’re maybe wanting to bring up something, okay. I’m not talking about when you’re trying to get them to empty the dishwasher. And when you’re trying to get them to take out the dog, I’m not talking about that. Now, I’m talking about when maybe they look upset or something’s gone on, or you pick them up from school and they’re just like, “I hate that teacher. She’s so mean, gives all so much work. This is awful.” Or they’re doing a sport and they said, “Oh, I’m so horrible. I just can’t do this.” Those kind of things.
Teri Miller:
Okay.
Cynthia Klein:
Okay. Because that’s kind of the situation. They have angst in their life. How do you respond to allow them space to vent? Because when they can vent and get those emotions out, right. Then they can think better afterwards. We can’t think when we’re emotional. So how you respond can allow them space to vent, get the emotions out of their limbic system. So then their prefrontal cortex can function better.
Teri Miller:
So this could be even the unspoken, like yeah, when you pick up your teenager or I walk into the house and already, I don’t know what’s happened, but my kid is like this. For listeners, I’m making a face and crossing my arms. So would this apply to that kind of thing too? Where you just they’re upset, but you don’t know why, and they’re not saying anything.
Cynthia Klein:
Right. And there you can careful about not interrogating.
Teri Miller:
Okay.
Cynthia Klein:
So yeah, there can be an instance where they are venting to you there. And that’s a little easier to respond to, than when they’re not. So let’s say they are venting and then I’ll talk to them not. And there’s one block that a lot of parents use is that they ask questions in a way where the underlying messages that, you’ve done something wrong. “Well let’s say they’re venting about their teacher and you’re thinking, “Well, what’s going on. I need to help her solve it. Maybe the teacher isn’t so bad.” You’re thinking all these things and you start asking questions. “Well, what happened? What did you do?” And right away, asking questions like that, the child could feel like, “My parent’s judging me, whatever I’m saying, they’re going to say I’m wrong.” So if you’re asking questions and your child is shutting down or saying, “Well, you don’t understand, you’re blaming me. You think that I did something wrong. And it’s really the teacher.” Then you’ve used the communication block called interrogating.
Teri Miller:
Okay.
Cynthia Klein:
Very common. So even if you pick your kid up, they’re in the car and you say, “How was your day?” “Fine.” If they don’t want to talk about it, well, one of the reasons could be, they’re concerned that whatever they say, you’re going to start asking more and more questions, start probing. And somehow they’re going to end up feeling like they’re wrong. Wow, it’s a really powerful one. Another communication block is giving… So let me go back to your thing about the child not saying anything. If you start asking them questions, if you say, “Well, what’s wrong.” If they’re feeling like, “Oh my gosh, whatever I say, they’re going to start questioning me more.” Maybe they’re thinking, “My mom is going to start trying to figure this out. They’re going to try to solve it.” So they kind of have to put up this wall to keep you out from that invasion going on.
Teri Miller:
What would be a better way to acknowledge that oftentimes your kid is clearly communicating. They’re upset. They are clearly wanting some kind of response. They’re communicating a message, but so I don’t want to say, “Hey, what’s wrong?” What can I do instead?
Cynthia Klein:
Right. So again, it also depends on what your relationship is on how you can approach your child. Okay. So if you’ve been able to be a supporter at times, where they know that you are going to just try to solve their problem, that they’ll be more open to be able to talk to you. So if you have a tendency, whenever they bring up something that you try to fix it, right? That you’re not a supporter, you try to take over as a director, they’re going to be less likely to want to talk to you. Okay?
Cynthia Klein:
So let me just take that situation because that is often what I come across to, with parents who were coming to me for guidance is they have a child not talking to them. So what I have them first do is, I have a whole list of 10 communication blocks, interrogating, commanding, me-tooism, giving advice, sarcasm. So I have the parent go through them and talk to their teenager and say, “I think I’ve been saying…” Or whatever age it could be a 10 year old. “I think I’m saying some things that when you’re upset, that really makes you not want to talk to me. And I want to change that. So can I share with you some different examples and you tell me which ones I do.”
Cynthia Klein:
So when I’ve had parents do that, teenagers, especially love to tell you. “Yeah. You’re always giving me advice. You’re always asking me questions.” But actually the parents aren’t doing as bad as they think they are. Because the parents read the whole list of 10 blocks. They say I’m doing all of them. So you first want to, if there’s been a wall there for a while, you want to first say to the child, “Okay. Which ones do I do?” They might say you do five. “Oh yeah. You’re always talking about yourself,” which is a me-tooism. “When I’m trying to talk about myself, you’re always talking about yourself.” Or, “You’re always trying to make me feel better,: which is placating.
Cynthia Klein:
So you get feedback and then you say, “Well, it’s hard for me to work on five at once. Tell me which one or two you really want me to work on.”
Teri Miller:
Wow.
Cynthia Klein:
So, “Yeah, mom, I’d really like you to stop trying to make me feel better when I’m feeling bad.” That’s placating. So again, remember I talked earlier, when you’re trying to make a change, you need to talk to your child about it. So when that happens, so now your child has heard from you that you’re going to work on listening and not giving advice or using sarcasm or talking about yourself. So let’s say that that’s been done. Okay? So then the child’s sitting there, so the child knows that you’re working on learning how to listen. So then you can come up with some empathy statements. And when you see a child upset, please look at them, first not as, “How do I fix this problem? My child’s upset. How do I make them not upset?” That’s a hard one. Isn’t it?
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Because we don’t want to see our child hurt. Right?
Cynthia Klein:
No.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So we get in fix-it mode.
Cynthia Klein:
That’s right.
Teri Miller:
Or placate.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. Right. Placating, trying to make him feel better. It’s really hard. And I think that’s a lot of the strength as a parent is how can we hold those bad feelings that they’re having and how can we manage them as well? So that they realize that they can handle those bad feelings. So if we can’t handle those bad feelings and they don’t think they can handle them as well. Yeah. I saw my daughter go through a lot of hard feelings and that it’s really important for us to be able to handle them.
Cynthia Klein:
So let’s say the child’s sitting there and you could say something like, “Wow, it looks like something’s happened today.” So I’m making a statement, I’m not asking a question. And I’m saying something like, it looks like, so notice, this is for a thinker child more, it looks like something happened. I haven’t said the word you and I haven’t said a feeling word. So if you have more of a thinker, which my daughter is, than a feeler, “It looks like something happened today.” It can feel more comfortable for them.
Cynthia Klein:
So more of a feeler type you might say, “Wow, you seem kind of upset.” So I’m saying seems like, looks like, so I’m using tentative words so that I’m not coming in like, I know. And I’m not saying, “Well, what happened? You look upset.” See, when I say you look upset, I’m analyzing you, which could be considered psychologizing. So when you say you look upset, it’s like they could respond. “No, I’m not.” Like you know what they’re thinking and feeling. And they’re feeling, “How dare you tell me?”
Cynthia Klein:
I’ve just had a lot of years of working on this, plus I’m pretty strong willed, and I wouldn’t like that either. Because I know it personally. So kind of more like, “Wow. Something seems to be bothering you,” would be a possibility. So again, it’s like paying attention to the impact of what you say rather than your intentions. So when I say something like, “Wow, something seems to be bothering you.” If I say that and I can sit down and they maybe go, “Huh.” Then I know that’s a good thing. If I say that and they get mad at me, it could be or could not be, it depends. If they get mad and then they keep venting, it could actually be a good thing.
Cynthia Klein:
So the whole point is to give them space where they can share what’s going on without being judged and analyzed. And the hardest thing as a parent is that space you give them, it’s not about you fixing it. It’s only thinking, “Okay, they’re upset, their limbic system needs space to just vent. I’m not going to start to ask them questions now. We’re not going to go to problem solving yet. That’s kind of step three. I’m just going to be here for them to vent.”
Cynthia Klein:
So that’s like when you do the supporter role, sometimes you might just do step one and two, which is stop locking, step one, listen openly, step two. And step three is to discuss ideas and step four is to check in later. Now my daughter often didn’t want to discuss ideas. She was more of, I keep saying very independent. She’s doing great in the business world. I’ll tell you, she’s a manager. She so she needed the space where she could vent about things because then she could get clearer and she could think about things and come up with her solutions. Some others will actually, like you were saying, Amy, earlier about want to have discussions about possibilities. Some then you’re a full supporter, but some just know, even if you are there as a supporter, without going through all the problem solving, that they will remember that.
Cynthia Klein:
I had one instance where she was very upset and she wasn’t happy about herself and what she had done. And she didn’t allude to, I kind of knew what it was, but we were never said exactly what it was, but I was just there listening to her and she was like, “How come you’re being so nice to me?” That what she said. “Why don’t you get mean like other parents do.” I was just, “I’m here. Yeah. I’m here for you.” So she talked about something kind of invertedly but not directly. So she told me a couple years later when she was in college, she said, “Do you remember that thing that I was telling you about?” Which was she was just saying that she wasn’t pleased with herself. Okay? She said, “Well, my roommate has the same problem that I used to have.” So it was like, knowing that just by her being able to vent about it in a way that felt safe. And my being there and accepting her, that she could make a change, was very powerful for me. Like, “Wow.” Because we can’t control them.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
But you didn’t have to direct that change. You didn’t have to should on her. You were just there to let her work through it, on her own. That’s powerful.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. Because you know what? We are not responsible for their lives. Parents think they are like, “Oh my gosh, I’m totally responsible for how they turn out.” I don’t believe that. They have their own mission. They have their own path. We don’t know what it is. And to be able to be there. My goal was to be able to be there when things are really hard for her. And there were times she would call me up when she was on her own in college and afterwards, and things were really hard, but she knew, and this is her dad as well can listen. She knew that we would never reject her, that we embraced her and loved her no matter what. And that we didn’t think she should be perfect. We didn’t think she should be a certain way. And that I always had confidence in her ability to change and grow.
Cynthia Klein:
Because my whole family, we have a practice that we do twice a day, where we really focus on ourselves growing and changing. So our whole family is based on that. How do we support each other as we’re all growing and changing, rather than you need to be the way I think you should be.
Teri Miller:
Oh yeah. Oh, that’s hard. That is so good. That’s the crux of it.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So we actually are over time.
Teri Miller:
Yes. [inaudible 01:07:25].
Dr. Amy Moore:
But I’d like to give you a chance to tell our listeners about your coaching program and how they can find you and work with you if they’re interested.
Cynthia Klein:
Yeah. So I think the easiest way is if you can go to allyparenting.com, that’ll take you to my website. It will show you about my coaching programs. I do one-on-one coaching. I also do talks. I’ve done over 600 talks at schools, mostly in person, but I do a lot over Zoom as well. So if somebody wants me to come and talk to their school, I can just do it over Zoom, but the one-on-one coach, it’s just allyparenting.com, will take you to my website. I think that’s the easiest way to find me. You can also find my book, it’s in on Amazon or any other place you purchase books, Ally Parenting. And it comes in audible, as well as soft cover and ebook as well. And I have different classes that I do at different times. And that way, when you go to my website, there’s a place you can get on my newsletter. I have a weekly email that I send out. Then you can find out also about like having a free class coming up next week.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Okay. Fantastic. Well, this has been an incredible conversation. And so Cynthia, we just want to thank you for your wisdom and for sharing such specific examples. And we know our listeners will have immediate takeaways that they can turn around and use today with their own kids. And I never do this, but I think everyone should own this book. As I was reading it, I was making a list of everyone I wanted to send it to. And so listeners, hear me, it’s phenomenal. So I highly recommend that.
Teri Miller:
Would it be best to order that book at allyparenting.com or Amazon? Or what would you recommend?
Cynthia Klein:
Yes. No, not through me. I don’t sell it. So you can simply go to Amazon. And I want to tell everybody that men love this book. It’s very short chapters, very direct. I used to write for a magazine, so it’s very male friendly. I work with as many men as women.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Thank you. Good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And it’s a quick read. You’ll go back and digest more, but yes, it doesn’t take more than a couple hours to actually get the overview for sure. And we’ll actually put those links, the links to purchase it on Amazon, the links to Cynthia’s website. We’ll do all of that. So if you would like more information about Cynthia’s work, again, her website is allyparenting.com or bridgestounderstanding.com. You can find her on Facebook @Cynthia.Klein.bridges and on LinkedIn @CynthiaJKlein. And we will put those handles in the show notes, as well as the link to purchase her book, Ally Parenting: A Non-Adversarial Approach to Transform Conflict Into Cooperation.
So thank you so much for listening today. If you liked our show, we would love it if you would leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, if you would rather watch us, we are on YouTube and you can find us on every social media channel @TheBrainyMoms. So look, until next time we know that you’re busy moms and we’re busy moms, so we’re out.
Teri Miller:
See ya.
Cynthia Klein:
Bye.