The Psychology of Creativity (And Why it Matters for Your Child) with guest Dr. Michael Alcee
About this Episode
Want to help cultivate your child’s creativity? Wondering how to help your child integrate the creative and logical parts of their mind? On this episode of Brainy Moms, Dr. Amy and Teri interview clinical psychologist, Dr. Michael Alcee who specializes in the psychology of creativity. He shares how we as parents can help nurture creativity in our children while also supporting the development of linear thinking. Michael tells us that encouraging our kids to explore the many sides of themselves is a key aspect of mental health. From creativity to emotions to interests to introversion, we cover a lot about integrating creativity, passions, and skillsets in this hour. Join us for a journey into the psychology of creativity.
About Dr. Alcee
Michael Alcée, Ph.D. is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Tarrytown, NY and Mental Health Educator at Manhattan School of Music. He specializes in the psychology of artists and everyday creativity and the professional development of therapists. His contributions have appeared in The Chicago Tribune, The New York Times, NPR, Salon.com, Sirius radio, and on the TEDx stage. His forthcoming book from Norton entitled Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging It and Own It as a Therapist will be out in May 2022.
Connect with Dr. Alcee
Website: https://michaelalcee.com/
Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-alcee-14417755/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/mike_drop_1
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mike_drop_/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/livelifecreatively2
Mentioned in this Episode
Michael’s book, Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging It and Own It as a Therapist (The Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology)
Pixar Movie: Inside Out
Daniel Pink’s Power of Regret
Susan Cain’s Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking
Susan Cain’s Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole
Susan David’s Emotional Agility: Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life
David Epstein’s Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World
Quincy Jones’ 12 Notes: On Life and Creativity
Winnicott’s idea of “potential space” in Playing and Reality
Samuel Beckett’s quote from Worstward Ho, “Try Again. Fail Again. Fail Better.”
Adam Grant’s research on introverts
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Dr. Amy Moore:
Hi, and welcome to this episode of Brainy Moms brought to you by LearningRx Brain Training Centers. I’m your host Dr. Amy Moore, here with my co-host Teri Miller, coming to you today as usual from Colorado Springs, Colorado. We are excited to introduce our guest today, Dr. Michael Alcee. Michael is a clinical psychologist in private practice in Tarrytown, New York, and he is a mental health educator at Manhattan School of Music. He specializes in the psychology of artists and everyday creativity, as well as the professional development of therapists. His contributions have appeared in The Chicago Tribune, The New York times, in PR, Salon.com, Sirius Radio, and even on the TEDx stage.
Teri Miller:
We are so glad you’re here, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
I’m excited to have a conversation together, guys.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
We are, too.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Well, so I have to confess that we have already laughed and had such great conversation, even before we’ve started the recording. So this is going to be fun, entertaining, super informational, so stick with us till the end.
Teri Miller:
I just know it’s going to be great. So yeah, before we even get into all the good information you’ve got for us, I want you to tell us a little bit about yourself, and your story, and how you became passionate about the integration of psychology and creativity.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah. It’s interesting, I’ve always been interested in the link between literature and therapy. When I was in college I took a literature and psychoanalysis course, which blew my mind because we read Freud and Lacan along all the great story writers. And then of course my mom was a social worker who was also a student of literature, so whenever we talked about therapy, we were talking about deepening our understanding of characters.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But I really fell in love with the combination when I started reading Oliver Sacks and his neuroscientific work on bringing together the stories of all of his interesting and unique patients. And I thought, “Gosh, I got to study biology, too.” So as I studied biology and psychology, I’ve always kept a connection between I’m an amateur pianist, and I’ve always appreciated literature.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And then, I’ve always worked in college counseling but then I ended up doing a side gig at Manhattan School of Music. And what better place, working with classical and jazz musicians and musical theater folks, to see the inherent links between what’s going on psychologically and what’s happening artistically.
Teri Miller:
So interesting, just such an interesting niche. And I’m a musical theater person, so I love this niche and I’ve really enjoyed reading some of what you’ve got out there. And listening to your podcast, so this is cool stuff.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
So, I’m hoping-
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah, I grew up on the stage, too. So this is fascinating to me.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, I had a feeling you were both triple threats. I wasn’t going to [inaudible 00:02:51], but…
Teri Miller:
That was my degree in college.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
I knew it, Amy. (Editorial note. It was Teri who said musical theater was her degree in college.)
Teri Miller:
All right.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So, you have told us that you’re excited to share how to maintain children’s natural creativity. Talk to us about that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah. It’s interesting, Picasso had this wonderful idea that all children are artists, but they forget once they grow up. And we also saw that in my favorite scene in The Little Prince, that wonderful story for adults and children. The little prince is making a picture and he says, “Are you guys scared of this?” And they say, “Why should we be scared of a hat?” And he’s like, “What are you talking about? This is a boa constrictor swallowing an elephant.”
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And so I think there’s something about the magical openness and divergent thinking, the novelty, the variety that children … That’s what their currency is. And I think there’s something about making sure that we keep tending to it and cultivating it, and enjoying it. I think that’s the reason that as parents we get so much fulfillment because we re-enchant it with the magic of creativity that’s actually available to all of us.
And so I’m really passionate about saying, “Wait, why do we have to give that up?” We can learn how to refine it, and use our reason, and our logic, and our language, and all these other wonderful discriminating capacities, but one of the things that I see in psychotherapy is that we lose touch with how to just know this other natural language. And it’s a dialect of the other languages that we know.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Creativity is?
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Creativity is a complete dialect, and recognizing how creativity and what you might call maybe logic, because sometimes logic isn’t as creative. It’s very sequential and linear. But the best artists and the best scientists, just as the most integrated people, learn how to toggle back and forth between creativity and more linear thinking.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And actually, when you bring them together … That’s why I use the metaphor of a jazz musician when understanding how therapy works. Because a jazz musician is extraordinarily disciplined and aware of music theory, and how chords change, and harmonies change. But they’re also working with that right in the moment spontaneously, using that free-wheeling creative side of themselves to have an emotional connection.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And so there’s no separation, there’s a complete integration and interconnection between those. And imagine if we could help our kids learn how to appreciate how these core changes happen, and we could do it with them. So I see parenting as being a really good jazz partner, really good musician in the band alongside. And to say, “Boy, that kid has chops.”
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Instead of saying, “Oh man, look at this misbehavior,” or, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this thing happened, I was expecting them to go there,” no, that’s the beauty. But how do we make and find a new format of that together? And especially since we have more expertise and more development cognitively, how do we help steward that in service of something larger?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Oh, I love that.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And so I love how you talk about nurturing that integration. I talk about science writers, they have to have the creativity to make their writing engaging and draw readers in, but they have to understand the science of what they’re actually writing in terms of the content.
Or I talk about scientists who play musical instruments. Like you and I both play the piano, but we’re both scientists. And so to be able to say like, “I own and integrate all sides of who we are, and nurture those together and use the strengths from each.”
Teri Miller:
I want to-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
You know what’s also funny about it? Oh, sorry, Teri. What’s so interesting about it, too, that you’ve mentioned, I want to put a plug at we talk a lot about outer diversity, which is wonderful as a field, and inclusivity. I think sometimes we forget about this inner diversity that we have. That we have multiple characters and multiple selves inside. So Walt Whitman said, “I am large, I contain multitudes.”
We all contain multitudes, and we’re often shifting back. That’s why one moment in the morning I’m feeling one way, and then an hour or two later I’m feeling a different way. And I’m like, “What happened? Where did I go?” And yet, that isn’t a problem. That’s the beauty of how we’re built to be able to be so flexible, and plastic, and move into different territories. But what happens when we are moving somewhere else, and then our partner, or our friend, or our family is moving somewhere else.
The funny thing is, we all start with a polyphonic heart and mind. Like a fugue, there are these voices and they intermingle, and they can create seeming dissonances. But they’re also part of beauty if you look at the inner structure. And our job is to learn how to really get to master that polyphony, and then also become virtuosic in which voice we’re expressing right now.
Teri Miller:
Okay. Okay, so you’re talking in a lot of analogy and beautiful creative language; I want to get specific. I want you to give me-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Drill down there.
Teri Miller:
… some specific ideas. Yeah. Okay, so I want to get practical, because I’m a mom of kids that are growing through these stages. Okay, so I’m going to just use for an example the youngest four that I have at home. So just the youngest four-
Dr. Amy Moore:
Terry has nine kids, by the way.
Teri Miller:
Right.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, I’ve read about that. That’s the word on the street. Yeah.
Teri Miller:
It’s crazy. Talk about creativity, woo! Little crazy, too.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
Okay. So the youngest four at home. So my 16 year old son, he was such an artist. Literally drawing, he would create new creatures. He and a couple of my other kids they would tape pieces of paper together and create these long stories, almost like timeline of a story, like movie, with different creatures.
And they’d write things about it, and he would invent things, and just so creative. Just really, really amazing. So somewhere along the way, like you said, he’s lost that. And I don’t know how I missed cultivating it. So he’s become very, very cerebral. He’s super, super smart. He’s already in college classes. He’s very practical. He’s just left those things behind.
Now, he does still play D&D with his older in-college siblings and a couple of their friends. So that’s cool, they get online and do that. So he has a little piece of it, but for the most part, it’s like he’s put that behind him.
Okay, next one down, she’s a dancer. She has been a dancer, she has stuck with it. She loves it, but she doesn’t integrate that, somehow. It’s compartmentalized. So she’s at the dance studio five days a week. She dances, and then she’s like, “Ugh, school. Have to get through it.”
Next one down. Again, so much like my 16 year old, super creative artist. He is right in that transition, he’s 12. He is leaving it behind. He’s already started going to this early college as school, already doing college prep stuff. Because again, he’s super book smart and cerebral, and he wants to know stuff and dig in. But he almost has this disdain for that creativity.
Okay, my youngest. She’s nine. She’s so precious and creative. She draws all the time. She wants to paint, she creates things. She’ll go Google things she wants to look up to how to draw it and … Okay, how can I help her hold on to that? And how can I encourage the ones that are in those various stages of losing it or compartmentalizing it, what can I do? There’s my story.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, beautiful. All right, you want to hear the good news or the bad news? You want-
Teri Miller:
Oh-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
… to hear both. No, you want to hear both.
Teri Miller:
Then absolutely both.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Bad news first.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
No, the bad news isn’t bad at all. That’s the funny part. The ironic part is there’s no bad news really in this.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Oh.
Teri Miller:
Okay, good.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
So the good news is that this is actually the natural and normative development of all of us. The thing is we really start in this place of really being creative and interesting in these different things and having less boundaries and differentiation, and then we become specialists. We need to become specialists to cultivate a certain identity that makes us feel like we feel confident. We feel confident, and also we’re growing these other sides that are less creative and more linear.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And we want to put those into practice and so we get disdainful. Sometimes if you notice, our own brains work against each other and being a little disdainful of, “Oh, you’re being so immature.” We’re interesting, we’re a square peg in a round hole. We have these wonderful emotions, which are non-linear and, these interesting thoughts which are linear.
And sometimes as we’re developing more of the linear side, we can temporarily get disdainful of it. But what’s cool is that your older children are developing getting to learn some more experience and competency with it, and they will return to integrating. But I think this kind of process is a longer stage. And I think adolescent and young adulthood, we’re really working on the linear but still trying to hold on and integrate in little ways, self-respecting ways, if you will. And then I think in more of mid-adulthood, we actually start to reclaim them.
So this to me is right on course. So Carl Jung said something, I think, we don’t really become wise or a full self until the age of 40. Up until then, we’re just gathering data.
Teri Miller:
50? 50 maybe?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
50. Yeah, 50. Let’s say 50, let’s say 50 for Teri in the house. We’re going to say 50.
Teri Miller:
50 is the new 40, right?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
50 is the new 40, yeah. Come on, Carl Jung, he was thinking a lot shorter lifespan. So we’re talking 50. But the point is that all of this stuff is the data gathering that they’re doing that’s going to come back together with this other stuff. And so think about it as starting in a magical interconnected place, moving to a place of coming outside of the garden, if you will.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
In that old story of the Garden of Eden, by the way, it seems like a loss, but this is the beginning of actual creativity. Because there’s more free will, there’s the capacity to name things. There’s actual birth going on. That’s a place, but we also struggle. And then we reclaim it by integrating.
That’s why you see sometimes artists at later stages … Look at Picasso’s work, it’s interesting. He did a lot of representational work on landscapes and figures. Very traditional if you look at his course of his life. But then he went back to painting like a child, and seeing the world through childlike imagery. And that’s what revolutionized how his painting worked.
So I actually think it’s important to see this as almost three stages. And not to get scared, “Oh my God, they’ve lost it forever.” They haven’t lost it forever, it’s still there. And that’s going to serve in some interesting way when they bring it together in their own unique voice.
Teri Miller:
Okay.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Does that help?
Teri Miller:
Yeah. Are there things as a parent I should be doing to … Even with my 16 year old. Maybe is it just the simple thing of instead of saying, “Dude, you need to do your homework. Go forget that D&D game,” but as a parent, should I be doing things like carve out that time, “That is so good for your creative brain, buddy. I love it. Take a day off of your homework.” Is that good to help encourage that?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah. I want to share a simple analogy that you can use with kids. When I worked at Vassar College and I worked with these very, very brilliant students, and I was 27 and I was like, “What am I going to give these kids?” How do I get them to think more openly about the different sides of themselves?
So I created this metaphor. And it’s therapy is like we have this table before us … Or living is like we have this table before us. And our job is to bring all those sides to the table and have a conversation. And we’re curious about which side talks the most, which side talks the least, and which side or sides aren’t invited or allowed at the table. And we constantly want to get more curious about all those sides.
And remember them. Because those sides that you forget, those sides that you neglect, those sides that you exile, they will try and rebel or try and throw anxiety or depression or other things that you to say, “Hey, remember me? I’m still part of you.”
So you’re right, it is helpful and healthy to encourage our children to get to know these many sides of self, which they instinctively do. We, actually, as parents and teachers are the ones who actually condition them out of it in a way. Ironically, because we say, “I don’t like that side.” Or, “That side is not appropriate.” Which is healthy because we want to give them civility and morals and all that kind of stuff.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But then what we want to also do is help them to just be non-judgmentally aware of what those sides are, and what they might also offer. And the surprising things. So interesting, you ever see that movie Inside Out? That Pixar movie which is about all these different sides of the table? The guy who was working on that film, in the beginning he … Joy is the main character, and he really gave Sadness a very little role in the earlier drafts.
And the people who he was working with said, “This film is going nowhere.” You don’t bring Sadness into the picture in any way, and so the whole film is about how this character wants to push away Sadness because it feels like it’s yucky and disgusting and not helpful. But actually helping our kids learn how to lean into the negative emotions, or the difficult emotions.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Some of the stuff that we’re seeing with … Daniel Pink has written a book about the power of regret. Susan Kane just wrote a book about bitter sweetness. Susan David talks about emotional agility. All these different influencers, some of whom are not even psychologists, are writing about the importance of leaning in. And so I think this is another way of leaning in and just regularly checking in with, “Hey, remember that side?”
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Does that help?
Teri Miller:
I love that. I love all the different pieces coming in, so good. Yes, thank you.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Because to the extent we suppress or repress, what happens is those things go underground. And they try and speak to us in other ways. And then we’re confused, “Why am I tired? Why am I drained? Why am I depressed? Why am I feeling conflicted?” And because of polyphony, we never lose them. They’re there. It’s almost like an orchestra. They’re still in the orchestra, but you’re like, “Wait a minute, you got to give the winds a turn.”
Teri Miller:
Okay. So as a parent, as an adult, you’ve talked about … I think it was in a podcast episode called You’re in the Club, Too. You talk about “little c” creativity, and “capital C” creativity. Tell us about that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, so it’s so funny. I work with artists, musicians. And funny enough, they sometimes don’t think they’re creative, too, because they don’t see personal creativity as relevant to what they’re doing. In other words, what we are doing right now is personal creativity. Rifting and going back and forth and opening new dimensions of our experience is personal creativity.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And then if you’re not a painter, if you’re not a dancer, if you’re not an actor, most people think I have no creative bone in my body. And that’s false, too. You can get the person who is completely non-conventionally artistic, and they’re as artistic as they come because this artistry thing is something that’s built into us neurologically. We would not have survived and evolved without this kind of ingenuity and resourcefulness.
And our feelings are extraordinarily creative, by the way. I sometimes think of us as … And Amy, you tell me if this sounds right, we’re sophisticated emotion regulation machines. And constant idea generators. Idea generators about the present, the past and the future. Sometimes that idea generating gets in the way, because we worry too much about the future or we regret too much about the past. But our system is built in such a way to be constantly working on this stuff.
Just it is to say, “Hm, how do I feel about this? What’s my level of equilibrium?” And so that’s a very, very creative and sophisticated process. And I think we don’t think about that when we think of mental health. Many of us think about psychological disorders, or problems, anxiety, or depression, or these kinds of things. But we don’t think about, “Wait, what’s the resourcefulness that we all have access to.”
So that’s the “little c” creativity, which I only say it “little c” just to differentiate it. Because you could still be creating a symphony in your life, even if you’re not writing one.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Oh, I love that.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm. I want to ask also about having to be good at something in order to consider yourself creative. So one of my older, college-age daughters, Eliza, she did a post to our big family text, and it was about dabbling in things, enjoying things, and not having to be good at it.
And it was a quote from someone. And it was someone saying, “Oh, well I’m a painter, and a writer, and a musician and a guitar … whatever.” And then the person they were talking to said, “Oh wow, so are you good at those things? You have some work?” And the person responded, “No, not at all. I’m not good at it, but I love it.”
And that conversation opened up like, “Can we not be so performance-oriented so that we can let ourselves be creative without having to be good at things?” Talk more about that, and how we be better.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, I think that’s beautiful. And I think that’s such a common tick in American culture. To have this knee-jerk reaction to say, “Oh, then you must be this.” Or, “Oh, you must be great.” It becomes about achievement.
And those are the seeds of objectifying. And that’s where little kids aren’t … They’re so much more evolved than us, because they don’t objectify so much yet. They stay in their subjective experience and they recognize the moments of eternity, and transcendence in not knowing. In this kind of Zen Buddhist idea of not knowing. And they don’t see uncertainty, they see possibility.
But the problem is that we often then look at these things as a way of defining things. And also, we have this obsession with achievement, as if achievement is the highest standard, or the highest thing we should all be seeking. And it’s actually a silly myth, because we know there’s old social psychology research, if you reward kids for doing something they already like, they stop doing it. And they actually enjoy it less. It’s the over justification effect, I think is what it was called.
And you know what’s so funny, I see this in therapy every day; when people come to me, they say, “Whoa, wait, what should I talk about? What do you want me to … or what should I, so that this is most productive?” And I’m like, “No, don’t worry about it.” Who cares? Don’t worry, you’re going to talk about what’s most important to you, and I’m going to track that. And then once we start doing, we can look at that more as an object, but we have to respect your subject to it first.
It’s sort of like what I think was so beautiful about what Mister Rogers did, that’s why I referenced him in the book in the beginning. Because I think what Mister Rogers did is he said, “Listen, this subjective world, this place of being valued in of yourself, intrinsically, is the core of everything.”
Your external achievements come from that place. And yet as a culture, sometimes as parents, sometimes as teachers, sometimes as friends, we all can go for the shortcut and say, “No, no, no. Now, this is great for you.” And of course that forms the seeds of perfectionism, too. Because the perfectionism says, “I must be this object for myself and for others in order to exist.”
And it means that we have to become static creatures. And what I love about what … I think it was your daughter, you said, who did this, right?
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Is that it’s actually in being able to be fluid, where we find ourselves. Actually, in being lost is how we are found. So psychological growth happens in the paradox. And when we remove that paradox, we become an object. Winnicott, the great pediatrician and developmental psychoanalyst, talked about the constant importance of having potential space, which was the interface, the interconnection between imagination and reality.
And there should be no choosing between them. There should be both. And when we objectify, we take away imagination and replace it with reality. And we exploit imagination in the service of reality. And why should we cut ourselves in half?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah, I love that this is about instead of an outcomes orientation, it’s an experience orientation, right?
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Moore:
That you’re missing the joy in the journey. And as adults, we’re very much outcomes-driven. We’re very much goal-oriented. And so if what we’re doing isn’t moving us towards a goal, then we feel like we’re wasting time.
That we’re spending time on something that isn’t as important. Whereas if you look at it from the mindset of a child, who experiences such joy in what they’re doing, in the process, and then … Where does that switch happen?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah. It’s really interesting, it happens gradually. And you know what’s interesting about it, too, Amy, that you mentioned that I think is really important; because you mentioned efficiency. Ironically, we think we’re losing efficiency. But have you ever watched children? Recognize how efficient they are in using the data of their experience, and making adjustments, and constantly tweaking things?
And then divergent thinking, figuring out new ways? So I think we should flip and that’s why I say sometimes as parents should learn from our children to reconnect, and do that work Teri that you said, “Wait, how’s my child lose that? That’s so sad. No, no, no.” But we need to be reminded by children again, how we can tap into that now more fully in an integrated way. And you’re right, how do we lose that, is that we start to say “No, no, no. That’s not what that’s used for.”
Or, “Oh no, no, no, no, you don’t do it that way.” Or, “No, that’s not helpful. That’s not important.” And so we start to limit and prune … And some of it’s helpful. We want to do that, but we also want to also say, “Oh, that’s so interesting that you found that way of using it like that.” Or, “Isn’t that cool.”
My little boy, he’s four years old and he’ll make a connection between something he’s watched on TV and something happening in real life. Or somehow he’ll use something different. He wanted to put his drink on the floor, and he’s like, “How do I drink this?” And he just said, “Ooh.” And he started to get Scotch Tape to tape straws together. And initially my wife was like, “No, don’t do that. That’s not right.”
And I was like, “This is brilliant. No, no, don’t discourage this. This is fantastic, this is ingenuity. This is an engineer’s mind working.” So I think also we have to recognize that it might take us out of our comfort zone, because it means we don’t exactly know what’s happening. Interestingly we talk about efficiency, but it’s also trusting a certain faith.
Amy, we’re talking about efficiency, people come into therapy with me and say, “If I don’t have an agenda, aren’t we going to waste our time.” Actually it turns out we will do more quicker, more in-depth, more interesting. And the other thing, Amy and Teri as you noticed as we’ve talked, we planned stuff before we came on here. But haven’t we surprised each other with the places that we’ve went? And hasn’t that made the experience that much more interesting?
See creativity revels in surprise, and delights in not entropy, but delights in this fluidity. And that actually can be very efficient, and that’s why I use jazz as a metaphor. Because jazz musicians are moving all around, but they’re tight knowing the form. And I think helping children to learn “wait,” they shift in the changes fast.
We know how to notice what changes are happening, and together we can help them master that art. And it also can help us look back and say, “Hmm, how does that relate to how I sometimes have a difficulty going from joy to fear, or joy to sadness.” We are no different. And so it helps us to keep on being the student always the teacher, the teacher always the student.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah, I love that. So my middle son is a mechanical engineering major in college. He’s in his third year. And this is a child who always had a screwdriver in his hand, whether it was pretend or real, in early childhood. He was always taking his toys apart, putting them back together. He was at the pediatrician’s office, and the wait was so long that he was trying to undo the pipe underneath the sink in the exam room.
And then the doctor comes in and says, “He’s going to be an engineer.” Which is amazing. But we watched him try out a lot of things and quit. And so at the time, I wasn’t making the connection that he was just digging into his curiosity about what was available to him. So he would try soccer, he would try martial arts, he would try lacrosse.
But he wouldn’t last the season. He would decide, “No, this isn’t for me.” And we were so worried, and so frustrated that he’s afraid to fail. That’s what we kept thinking, “He’s afraid to fail.” No, he just wanted to see. He just wanted to try. And we’ve watched it come full-circle. He lives at college, but he rented a garage just so he could tinker. He buys a 3D printer, and he builds these parts for his motorcycle.
And he’s back to where he was. But he’s taken all of this experience of how I use my body, how I use my hands, how I use my mind, what feels good, what brings me joy, and what doesn’t where he has chosen his path now at 21 and all those experiences and choices that he made. And we went with it, we just went with it. “You don’t want to do that? Okay.” But it all makes sense now.
Teri Miller:
That is so cool.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Can I tell you about how cool and smart that was, even though you didn’t know it at the … You thought, “Well, we’re going to go with it. And I don’t know.” So David Epstein wrote a really wonderful book called Range, and he contrasts Tiger Woods and Roger Roger Federer. And in America, we have this mentality that in order to be successful you should be more like Tiger Woods.
You should come out of the womb very ready to grab a driver, or learn how to putt, and keep on working. And get in those 1,000’s of hours … What is it, the 10,000-hour rule or something like that, to become proficient at something. And that you shouldn’t veer from that too much, otherwise you’re not going to really be a super success.
But, then he looked at Roger Federer and said, “Wait, Roger Federer did it differently.” In fact his mother was, I think, a tennis coach, but he started with soccer and did other sports. And didn’t really commit, fully … tennis until later on. But you notice, you see he’s super proficient. Probably one of the best in the world, and has used stuff from some of his other sports. Some of his squash skills he’s used in tennis in some of his great recovers.
But he cultivated a sense of range. And Epstein talks about the ways in which not only athletes like that, but scientists and artists, really are smart to take time to dabble. And then, what they do is they take certain skills and experiences from these different disciplines, and they bring them into where they eventually specialize in. And I think that is interesting, and better than the old model where we said you should be well-rounded and sort of have everything.
It’s not that you have to be super alpha at everything, but it is helpful to try out a lot. Because you want to get to figure out what’s the match between your passion and your skillset. And that compatibility is where we’re in the creative zone. I was a musician growing up, but I couldn’t think as fast on my feet to be a jazz improviser, even though I wish to be. But it turns out, my jazz teacher, Andy Jaffe from Williams College … Love him so much. I used to marvel at how he could listen to a song and tell you exactly what the core changes were, and solo on it like that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And what I realized, I didn’t know that he was teaching me how to be a good therapist. Because that I can improvise much better in, because that’s how I’m built. And so it’s really understanding what is your nature, like you said, Amy. You could see your son had that nature from the beginning. There’s a wonderful story of an English choreographer, and she couldn’t focus in class and she was moving around a lot, and her teacher thought there was something wrong with her so they took her to the doctor.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And the doctor put on the radio and was talking to her and asking her lots of questions. And he brought in the mother and said, “Ma’am, I have to tell you something. Your daughter is a dancer. You got to get her into dancing school. There’s nothing wrong with her, she’s a dancer.” Of course, she became a major producer and a choreographer, like Cats or something like that. And thank God. You have to know what the nature is, and then to support that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But you’re right, it is also helpful to cultivate a range of things, without worries about achievement or failure. In fact, Samuel Beckett, a great writer, said, “Fail. Fail again. Fail better.” And if we help our children fail better, they’ll feel better.
Teri Miller:
Hmm. Yeah. And everything’s integrated. I love that idea that nothing is lost. Because I’ve had that, some of my kids, different experiences they’ve gone through. My firstborn son, different job things. And then he’s been like, “Well, I just failed at that job. I was just no good at that.” He’s had a lot of medical struggles, so he’s been through some hard stuff.
And he’s had seasons where he has said, “Well that season, that was such a fail.” But I’ve really tried to help him understand to work on nothing is lost. And I love that I’m hearing that from you. And from you, Amy, in your story. That all of those experiences are building to where we’re going, and who we are becoming. It’s not fail, it’s learn.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, it’s true. It’s so funny, Quincy Jones, the great music producer and musician, just came out with a book called 12 Notes, and each is a different note of the musical scale. And each note is about a life lesson. And one of the things he talks about … I didn’t know much about his background. He had a very challenging, early story. His mother had really severe schizophrenia and was institutionalized. And he struggled with a lot of things, including racial discrimination and all sorts of stuff.
But his first chapter talks about recycling pain into purpose. And really beautifully seeing all this as material, and finding what is your creative vehicle. And for him, it was music to become the creative vehicle to express, contain, and support honoring these different sides of himself. And along the way, ironically enough, he meets all these surrogate parent figures.
Whether it’s Clark Terry, or Count Basie, or Frank Sinatra. So it’s interesting, it’s also being in alignment with yourself is really important. And I think you’re right, that is when we can be most integrated and most fully realized. And the cool thing about it, then we don’t have to worry about being perfect because we’re real.
And I think the joy of being ourselves, and also the joy as parents of seeing our children, is to see them be real with a capital R. Remember that old story, The Velveteen Rabbit, where the velveteen rabbit is hoping that one day he’ll become a real bunny? That’s really what we’re trying to do with our children, we’re trying to help them become real.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah, I had a really poignant moment with my 17 year old yesterday. And this’ll be controversial, but I’m going to say it anyway. So he is an elite musician in the city’s Youth Symphony, and he’s a competitive rock climber. And his goal is to go to the next Olympics in rock climbing. And he has been going to college since he was 14, he’s been dually enrolled. And at 17, he has academically fallen apart and disintegrated and said, “This is too much. I can’t do all of this, I’m too stressed.”
He’s in therapy. And we finally said, “Then don’t. Just don’t do it. You’ve got enough credits, I’ll graduate you out of homeschool. We’ll just disenroll you from regular school, I’ll be your homeschool mom and just give you a diploma and say you’re done. And you can focus on music and climbing”
And he says to me last night, “I just love the freedom of being able to focus on music and climbing right now.” And he is going to take a gap year next year, he’s just going to do his thing. And we’re not going to worry about it, we’re just going to let him explore it. And so my mom, who’s a lifelong educator, child development specialist, is like, “What do you mean you’re just going to graduate him out? What do you mean he’s just done with school?” Well, because his mental health is more important to me than whether he stays an extra year in school that he doesn’t really need.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, and there is this school called life.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
Yes.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And what I love about it, too, Amy, I think it also takes so much inner security as a parent, and as a child, to trust in that. And I think there’s something really brilliant about that because … It’s so funny, think about I’m a psychologist, and I sometimes think about the root of psychology is really the study of the soul. And I think it’s also the science of the soul, and that’s interesting. What Quincy Jones talks about is there’s science and soul, and they need to be integrated.
And how can we ignore or deny the soul of your son saying, “This is not where I’m at.” But by doing that, the science and the soul can come back together again, in what form they need to take. And I think sometimes there is a point of surrendering and letting go, and checking our own ego. And recognizing that we don’t fully know, and that’s okay.
And I think that’s hard for all of us as parents, because I think we want to feel more in control and we want to know that they’re safe and secure and all that kind of stuff. But ironically, sometimes they will be safer and more secure in being more fully themselves.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I love that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And only they know those compass points.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah, and one of the things I didn’t say in that story was that he walked into my office yesterday and I said, “Oh, how was therapy?” And he said, “Well, it was unnecessary today. And my next appointment’s not for a month.”
Teri Miller:
That’s awesome.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
In other words, “I know myself pretty well. I don’t really need any check-in. I’m good here.”
Teri Miller:
Yeah, because that was a soul irritant to him. What was going on was the world’s expectation, this educational expectation, this cultural expectation, was this soul irritant. And he’s-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
I like that term.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I do, too.
Teri Miller:
Oh, yeah. Because he’s not a little child anymore. He’s stepping into who he is becoming, and who he is. And now his soul isn’t as irritated, so, yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And I love that because if you look at a soul irritant, that’s also the dissonance that you’re feeling. And who’s to say dissonance is bad, but also who’s to say that we want to just not help him find the music that’s right for him. And if you look at an irritant, that could create a pearl if you let it really open.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
So I think that’s really beautiful. And it takes a lot of, like I said, inner fortitude, and compassion, and open-mindedness to do that. And that’s a form of our parental creativity, “Wait, we thought it was going in this direction.” But can we see that the data might not always go in that direction as we think. And what do they say in science, the data are always right?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Until they’re not.
Teri Miller:
Until … Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
There you go. I guess I’m talking to scientists over there. Until there not.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Until we gather more data that contradicts the last data.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Until we gather more data, yeah.
Teri Miller:
Right, right. That’s the thing, science is always changing. That’s the creativity and science together.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
You’re revising your hypothesis, right?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yes.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And all of a sudden, what you think was the hypothesis is no longer supported. You’d be a fool to keep on doing studies in that same direction.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Exactly. Exactly.
Teri Miller:
So good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
It’s interesting, I always tell people that statistics is my second language. And the reason I love it is not because I love math, because I don’t, I love the story that statistics tells. And so that’s creative, the way that we can look at the story that can be told through those numbers.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So, we need to take a break and let Teri read a word from our sponsor. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit about introversion and creativity, and how parents can approach that with their kids.
Teri Miller: (reading an ad from our sponsor, LearningRx)
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Dr. Amy Moore:
And we’re back talking to Dr. Michael Alcee, clinical psychologist who specializes in the integration of psychology and creativity. And so, you are actually in California right now giving a talk on introversion. So I’d love to hear a little bit about introversion and creativity, and where parenthood fits in.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Totally. And disclaimer, I’m an introverted extrovert. So there’s extroverts, there’s introverts, and there’s ambiverts, introverted extroverts. So I like to think of extroverts as the gas-powered cars of society, and introverts as the electric. And those of us who are in between, hybrids. So interestingly, the reason why introversion actually fits into our discussion of creativity is because all of us start from an introvert place.
We start with our imaginary world more prominent than our social, extroverted world. So we all start there, but the difference when we talk about introverts, which is I think important for parents to know and teachers to know, it’s really about how you get energy and how energy drains in you. And what’s your sweet spot of stimulation?
Because an extrovert will love going to a party and talking for five, six, seven, eight hours. And that will just keep on charging the battery up, and the fuel will be just going. But an introvert after maybe an hour, maybe a half an hour, maybe even an hour and a half, is just going to be overloaded. Done. “No more small talk for me, thank you very much.”
Dr. Amy Moore:
That battery is dead.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
That’s dead. And now I am useless. To you, to me, so why am I standing here? And so when you wonder why the introverts find a really, hopefully gracious or silly, excuse to get out of there, it’s not only for their benefit, it’s for your benefit, too. Because introverts are very tuned in to how they work, and they realize that there’s only a certain amount of stimulation that they can take and then they need to go refuel.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And unfortunately in American culture, we have more gas stations than we have electric charging stations. And so in the past, introverts would have to figure out how to just fake it till you make it. Until they got home, to be able to close the door, be by themselves, read a book, do something that reengages their introvertive spirit. Happily, we’re much more respectful and interested.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
There’s been a lot of attention for introverts since Susan Kane wrote her book Quiet, and her TED talk. And there’s been many books about introverts, and whole online communities, and even many memes, funny memes, about introverts. There was one, I think, introverts unite in small groups for limited period of times. And I once used that to start a group for introverts on the college campus where I worked. And actually my colleagues made fun of me, saying, “Who’s going to show up. And if they do, are they even going to talk?”
But it was like if you build it they will come. They came. And it was the most popular, most diverse, and most interesting group I’d ever run. And so I think what’s really important is to recognize where does your child fit along the spectrum of temperament? Because if you want to know if your child is happy or energized, you got to look at the main issue. How do they get energy? How do they lose energy?
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah. I have a teenage counseling client who’s an extreme introvert. And she’s had to train her family to understand that, “This is too much. I’ve had enough, and I need to go and be alone for two or three hours and recharge.” And it’s a constant struggle, because people take it personally. So, extended family are visiting and they don’t understand why she needs to disappear in the middle of a family gathering.
And so I think as parents, we need to be sensitive to that. Recognize the impact that it has on our kids when they are introverts, and their battery is dead and drained. And if we continue pushing them to interact with a dead battery, then it’s just going to go from bad to worse.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, I also use another analogy which kids and teenagers can relate to very well. You remember those old candy bar commercials when you get hangry? When you’re not yourself and you turn into a diva like Aretha Franklin, or an obnoxious guy like Joe Pesci? When you’re hangry is when you’re overstimulated, and you’re not really yourself.
And so when an introvert is overstimulated they get cranky, they get crabby, they get rude, they get obnoxious because they’re overcooked. So it really is healthy … and if they don’t get that support, then what happens is an introvert tends to then blame themselves, “What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I hack this, it’s only two hours?” Or, “Why am I so tired? This doesn’t make sense. Nobody else is so tired.” And they start to shame and blame themselves rather than understand how to work with their nature.
And this is also interesting because as psychologists, we love trying to figure out how to support people. But sometimes one of the great successes of our field is that we focus so much on nurture, we sometimes forget about nature. And it’s about that wonderful interaction. And so if you’re an introvert and you have introverted parents, and you know the need for some quiet time, or some reading time, or some walking in nature time, or going to a cultural museum or something like that, you’re fine.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But what happens when you don’t have an introvert parent, or you’re in a classroom when the expectation is for you to participate, and raise your hand, and speak instead of be internally present. Or you’re expected to do a group project, that most people hate anyway, but introverts especially hate. So there’s different ways in which I think we can be more sensitive and to understand are they an introvert.
I have a four year old and he’s watching Daniel Tiger, and there’s a wonderful little episode in Daniel Tiger where the teacher basically supports each child at different points in the episode of when they need alone time. They’d say, “Sometimes that’s cool.” And I think sometimes we worry about kids being social because that’s important for their success or their growth. It’s great, but solitude is good, too.
Solitude is different than loneliness by the way. Loneliness is the absence of connection, and alienation. Solitude is connection more fully with one’s self and the world through the inside.
Teri Miller:
That’s beautiful.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I love that distinction.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And we want to be mindful, we want to teach meditation. Meditation is solitude, right? Meditative places. And our culture sometimes puts that as a supplement rather than as the foundation. In introverts, it’s definitely the foundation.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And I think-
Teri Miller:
I’m sitting here-
Dr. Amy Moore:
Oh, go ahead.
Teri Miller:
Oh, well, I’m just thinking about my kiddos. I’m always taking the information from these interviews and making them very practical, like, “How could I take this into my own life?”
Dr. Amy Moore:
No, you’re modeling what we want our listeners to do, right?
Teri Miller:
Okay. Yeah, there you go.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, make it practical. I’m a metaphor guy, so use metaphors.
Teri Miller:
Yeah, so I’m thinking my oldest son, Caleb, I talked about him. He’s the one that has a lot of medical problems, and is an amazing overcomer. But when he was younger, he had intractable degenerative epilepsy, and I was very protective of making sure he got downtime and quiet time. Because more stimulation caused more seizures for him.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, makes sense. Very smart.
Teri Miller:
Yeah, greatly increased his seizure activity. So we pulled him out of school. If there was a family reunion, a birthday party, or whatever, I would very intentionally always have some crayons, some paper. He had little handheld games that would just be soothing, and I would pull him aside. I would be aware of the time, watch what was going on.
And even if it seemed like he was having a good time, I’d say, “Hey, let’s have a little quiet time in here, buddy.” And I’d make sure that he got that time so his brain didn’t explode with seizures. But I’m sitting here thinking I have not made that same jump to my kids that are introverted. My daughter, Eliza, the one who brought the idea of creativity and that thing of we don’t have to be good at it, she’s an amazing artist.
She’s creative. She’s always been crafty, creative, art. She’s an incredibly gifted henna artist, has developed a great business. When she was younger, she would take that time doing her art. And she is more introverted. But when you have a big family … we got a big family, nine kids.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, forget it.
Teri Miller:
There’s no space for an introvert.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
It’s hard for an introvert in a big family, yeah.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. And I’m thinking of my 16 year old, the one that I mentioned earlier. He does the D&D night, but he’s very cerebrally, he’s quiet, he’s very introverted. I have got to make a shift in my brain.
I’ve got to realize that I need to honor that in him. Instead of saying, “Dude, come on. It’s dinner time, join the family.” That I need to go, “Your solitude is beautiful. And that fuels who you are.” I’ve been missing it, and I need to make a change. And I’m going to do it.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But Teri I’m going to be your defense attorney for a moment, just because you didn’t know you hired me. And so the thing is though, I think it’s also hard to figure out the calm relative mix. So your situation is unique with having so many people in your household, that amps up the level of extroverted energy no matter what.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And so we just don’t take that to account, we just assume that this is just what families are. But now that you’re saying, “Wait a minute, I’m looking at their actual temperament, who my individual children are, and I’m looking at the nurture, the environment. And how do I figure out what’s the right combination?” That’s how we’re creative in this stuff.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And we don’t usually become creative until we’re forced to look at this stuff. And I think this is a really good point for everybody, is that we’re all going to have these seeming blind spots because we just know what we know, until a new creative understanding comes along. And so here, it’s a way of actually revisiting this thing of like, “Wait, this kid wants to do this a little bit on their own.”
Maybe there’s also a way of trying to offset some of the fact that the structure of your family is very extrovert-centric because it has to be. And that’s nobody’s fault, and that’s not any moral judgment at all. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just what is. Just as like an only child is going to have an easier time of having an introvert landscape, and will need some more extrovert help because they didn’t have to work with collaborating.
So again, it’s constantly looking at the nurture and the nature is, I think, how we become creative in this as parents. And the other thing is really listening, and trusting, and what’s the individual instinct? I love the other example that you said is that when we have something that’s easy to see, “Oh my gosh, he has this epilepsy. I need to protect this,” how differently we view that because we haven’t thought of introversion as something of, “Wait, this is a neurological thing.”
Nothing bad, but just an important thing to know about. And I think it’s pretty funny that us therapists don’t take that into account either. You go to the doctor you should know what your blood type is, but we don’t talk about what’s your best way of getting energy and losing it.
But we as parents can see that instantly. I know when my son is … he’s been boisterous at the playground for an hour, and now he needs his introvert time watching Daniel Tiger by himself.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And I think it’s important to point out that I introversion can be stealthy. So especially with kids who, like me, who were comfortable on stage, and still am. So I speak all the time publicly, I’m a TEDx speaker. And that doesn’t bother me at all. We tend to associate introversion with shyness, but it’s not.
Teri Miller:
Right.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
No, it’s not. It’s not-
Dr. Amy Moore:
And so parents might miss that.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, it’s not shyness necessarily. It’s not socially anxious, because you can have a socially anxious extrovert, too. You can have someone who loves being with people, but they feel constantly obsessed about are they going to be rejected? It’s all about energy and how you get your energy. So that’s totally right, Amy, that it’s really important to make those distinctions.
They’re not loaners necessarily, because you can have introverts talking to each other one-on-one and you’d think they’re the most outgoing people in the world. They could talk for hours. In fact, when Freud and Jung met, Jung was a classic introvert. Freud was a classic extrovert. Apparently, they talked for 13 hours in a row. They were just so excited, and I’m sure they were both seen like major extroverts at the time.
So I think it’s really important to notice that, and not lose sight of what introversion really is. The other thing, Amy, that I want to point out, that I think we don’t think about as Americans, is this ambivert term. We think in binaries a lot; are you a Democrat, are you a Republican? Are you this, are you that? And the gray sometimes we lose hold of. So the reason why sometimes people are confused perhaps like for myself, or maybe even you, Amy, or others out there in the audience, is because we do have an extroverted side that can be very gregarious and outgoing. But we also have a strong, introverted side as well.
Abraham Lincoln is a great example of this. Believe it or not, Abraham Lincoln could retreat and be very introspective, but he also would stay up late and tell gregarious stories with friends. And I think it’s the reason why he was so interesting and successful as a leader, because he can be … Introverts are very tuned in, and they can use that empathy to really make connections. And I think Lincoln had that, but he also was a great orator because he had a lot of extroverts prowess as well.
And the ambiverts, believe it or not … Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist at Wharton. And he did this interesting study where he said, “Who are the best sales people? Extroverts, ambiverts, or introverts?” Well, we all expect the extroverts to win, right? They seem someone always out there, ready to make the sale. Obviously, the introverts probably not going to be the best sales people. Maybe. But, it turns out the ambiverts were the best by far.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Makes sense.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And the reason is because they’re good synthesizers. They can figure out and tune in to what a customer wants and needs, and find a way to get out there, but not oversell. And so I want people to also remember that the ambiverts are the people that are also tricky to find.
They’re the stealth introverts, as you called them, Amy. Because people think, “No, you’re an extrovert. You’re such a get along gal, such a get along guy.” Yes, but remember after I was a get along guy, I needed two hours of recharge time.
Teri Miller:
Right. That’s my mommy sabbatical perspective. I tend to think of myself as an extrovert, but yeah, I’m probably much more ambivert, like you said. Because yeah, that mommy sabbatical time, that time to get away, and just have quiet, and be by myself, is very important to me.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And that’s why I call you the hybrids, by the way. Because actually, you need an equal level of fuel and charge to function optimally.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. Because I-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And so sometimes you can be like, “Oh my God, I’m enjoying this.” And you ever have an experience as an ambivert where you’re … I’m enjoying this conversation, and I’m like, “Oh my God, this is so fantastic. I’m getting so energized. And I’m getting drained at the same time.”
Teri Miller:
Huh. Yeah, like later. A lot of times it’s later.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Later, yeah.
Teri Miller:
Because I’ll be so energized from being with people, and then I’m with more people, than I’m with my … And then I reach this point where I’m like, “Oh my gosh, too much noise.”
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Nose dive, right? And so that’s where I think for ambiverts it’s a bit different. And so I think also parents can get confused if their child is an ambivert, too, because they’re like, “Wait a minute. I thought you were here, but now you’re here.”
Dr. Michael Alcee:
But no, it’s again finding that balance and regulation. Remember I said we’re basically just sophisticated emotion regulation machines.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Yeah.
Teri Miller:
That’s a good term, I like that.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I do, too.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
There we go.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So, we’ve been talking for an hour.
Teri Miller:
Oh my goodness, this is the longest ever.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I know. So we need to wrap this up. But Michael, you have a book coming out. So you want to tell our listeners about that?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
I do, yeah. So I have a book that’s called Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging it and Own it as a Therapist. It really, for me, is a love letter to the field of therapy, and how it’s interconnected with the arts. With music, with literature, with film. But also, it’s in Norton’s Interpersonal Neurobiology Series.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
So of course it’s grounded in the neurobiology of how we’re built. And I hope it helps grad students, early career therapists, even therapists who’ve always thought of themselves as artists reclaim their voice. And I’m eventually hoping that it opens up a new way of thinking about mental health as living creatively.
Teri Miller:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amy Moore:
And the field of life coaching is exploding, so life coaches would probably benefit from it as well, right?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Yeah, I think so. I think one of the cool things is that I use a lot of case examples. So when Teri’s saying, “Practically Mike, show me what this means,” I really tried to make sure that it was very, very accessible and enjoyable.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And as you can hear from talking to me, I like using a lot of metaphors because I think that helps us understand things better.
Teri Miller:
Yeah. And you-
Dr. Michael Alcee:
And a lot of pop culture references. I appreciate pop culture references [inaudible 01:00:11] in my book.
Teri Miller:
Yes. Yeah, movie references and stuff like that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Movie references.
Teri Miller:
I got a lot from that.
Dr. Michael Alcee:
I got some Robin Williams in there, I got some Jennifer Lawrence. We got everybody in there. Robert De Niro, you name it.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
Excellent.
Teri Miller:
Good.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So to wrap up, what would you like to leave our listeners with?
Dr. Michael Alcee:
Oh, gosh. Well, I hope that we can revision how we think of mental health, but also how we think about how we can live creatively. And that we’re actually built from the inside out to live creatively, whether we’re artists or not.
And that we can help cultivate that creativity, not just for our children, but together with our children. And I think that, to me, is the greatest gift. And I think that’s where the magic happens.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I love that.
Teri Miller:
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore:
All right. So we are out of time, and need to wrap up. But this has been a really fascinating and engaging conversation today. So we want to thank you, Dr. Michael Alcee, for sharing just all of this great insight. If you’d like more information about Michael’s work, his website is michaelalcee.com. You can also find him on Facebook @livelifecreatively2, that’s the number two. But we’ll put all of his links and social handles in our show notes.
Dr. Amy Moore:
I’m also going to include links to all of the books that you mentioned, because I know that if people got intrigued by some of those authors that you quoted … We’ll put all that in the show notes so that you guys can find that easily. As well as a link to your book, Therapeutic Improvisation: How to Stop Winging it and Own it as a Therapist.
Dr. Amy Moore:
So thank you so much for listening today. If you liked our show, we would love it if you would leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. If you would rather watch us, we are on YouTube and you can find us on every social media platform @thebrainymoms. So look, until next time we know that you’re busy moms, and we’re busy moms, so we’re out.
Teri Miller:
See ya.