Pediatricians Share Why Kids Need Time in Nature with guests Dr. Pooja Tandon and Dr. Danette Glassy

About this Episode

About Dr. Glassy

Danette Swanson Glassy, MD, FAAP, is a primary care pediatrician and child advocate. She is the cofounder and board president of the nonprofit BestStart Washington and leads its Project Nature initiative—a program to support pediatric medical professionals as they encourage children to spend time in nature. She is the coeditor of Caring for Our Children: National Health and Safety Performance Standards; Guidelines for Early Care and Education Programs, 4^th Edition. Dr. Glassy lives in the Seattle area and enjoys exploring nature in the Pacific Northwest with her two grandchildren.

About Dr. Tandon

Pooja Sarin Tandon, MD, MPH, FAAP, is ageneral pediatrician and researcher at the Seattle Children’s Research Institute, an associate professor at the University of Washington School of Medicine, and the director of health at the Trust for Public Land. She has published widely on the importance of physical activity, outdoor time, and nature contact for health. She lives in the Seattle area with her husband and two children.

Connect with Dr. Glassy and Dr. Tandon

Website: www.ProjectNature.WA.com

Facebook: @ProjectNature

Dr. Glassy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danette-glassy-12b00067/

Dr. Tandon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pooja-s-tandon-md-mph-672040299/

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Read the transcript for this episode:

DR. AMY: Hi, smart moms and dads. Welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms podcast. I’m your host, Dr. Amy Moore, and I am joined by my co-host, Sandy Zamalis. And Sandy and I are excited to bring you a conversation with two pediatricians today. They are co-authors of the book, “Digging Into Nature; Outdoor Adventures for Happier and Healthier Kids.” So I’m excited to introduce Dr. Pooja Tandon. She’s a general pediatrician and researcher who has published widely on the importance of physical activity, outdoor time, and nature contact for health. She lives in the Seattle area with her husband and two children. And we also have Dr. Danette Glassy, a retired primary care pediatrician who now leads the Project Nature initiative, a program to support pediatric medical professionals as they encourage children to spend time in nature. Dr. Glassy lives in the Seattle area as well and enjoys exploring nature in the Pacific Northwest with her two grandchildren. Welcome, Dr. Glassy and Dr. Tandon.

DR. GLASSY: Thank you so much. It’s great to be here.

DR. TANDON: Great to be here. 

SANDY: So, we always like to start off by having our guests talk about how they got interested in their specific topic. And this particular topic, outdoor play, we’ve not actually ever done on our podcast. So we’re really excited about bringing this topic to the podcast. Could you both share stories that you’ve kind of opened up your book with and talk a little bit about how you became engaged in this topic and Project Nature?

DR. GLASSY: Yeah, you know, after my long career, 30 years in pediatrics, for pediatricians, the idea of nature time also is somewhat new, but it was starting to bubble up a little bit, especially as children were being indoors more or less outdoor activity, and certainly more screen time. And about that time that I was hearing about parks prescriptions and physicians being involved in this, I had this patient come in for her kindergarten checkup. She was six. And I always asked, what do you like to do outside? And this little girl rolled her eyes and said, “Oh, Dr. Glassy, I’m not an outdoor girl.” And of course, we all kind of laughed. It was very dramatic.  But her parents I just jumped in right away, “Oh, we’re so proud of her! She’s already coding. She does so much on the computer.” And it really struck me, “My gosh, how can you fault that?” But I don’t even know what to say. I’ve been in practice all these years and how do I help this family find balance for this girl. Because it doesn’t sound like she has much balance right now. Fast forward then with the opportunity to be able to investigate this and spread it to other pediatricians, meeting up with Dr. Tandon, the research mind, so that we could really perfect the messages we were giving other pediatricians and pediatric practitioners. And as we were doing that, decided to also reach parents directly with our new book, “Digging into Nature.” 

DR. AMY: Dr. Tandon, how about you? 

DR. TANDON: Yeah. So, I’ve been a pediatrician for over 20 years and a researcher for more than half of that, focused on getting kids moving—sort of physical activity and healthy movement behaviors. But for me, I think what really inspired this work was being a mother to two children who I was, you know, as they were little and I was realizing what childhood looked like today, where children were increasingly drawn to screens where the indoors were just so comfortable, and challenging to sometimes navigate, you know, two boisterous boys and their behaviors that I found myself having an easier time parenting when my children were outdoors. And I started thinking about that and, you know, connecting in my mind the idea that, you know, I grew up outdoors. I spent a lot of time outdoors, but I spent a lot of it in India and not in typical ways that people think of outdoors or outdoorsy here. I wasn’t camping and hiking, but I spent a lot of time on, you know, gardens and parks and rooftop terraces. And so that kind of came together for me and as a researcher, I took that on to really focus on, you know, what do we know what’s missing as far as nature contact and health? And health defined in all the broadest ways, the physical health, mental health, and learning, and found that there is a substantial body of evidence around this and wanted to bring that awareness to my colleagues first. We’ve been focusing a lot on other researchers and pediatricians and teaming up with Dr Glassy to really bring this information to parents and families. 

DR. AMY: So, our listeners know that, in addition to being a psychologist, I’m also a clinical researcher. And so I have, of course, read your 2021 review in Pediatrics. And so, distill that down a little bit for us. What’s behind the medical evidence in that spending time in nature improves health and well-being of children? Are we primarily talking about mental health or is something happening physically as well? What have you found? 

DR. TANDON: Yeah, so that that review process was a big paper and luckily the pandemic gave me lots of time to work with colleagues on that. We started with over 10,000 studies and distilled it down and eventually reviewed about 300. And we found that the evidence is broad, like there are many areas of health that are supported by time in nature. With the most compelling evidence in two categories, and that’s for physical activity and mental health. And so these are the two areas where we found the most amount of studies, the most rigorous studies, that spending time in nature, or even living in neighborhoods that have nature nearby, you know, living in with parks in your community or trees, that are in your neighborhood or in your schoolyard, kind of a range of different types of nature exposures can lead to benefits as far as children moving more and reporting fewer symptoms of things like, you know, fewer depressive symptoms or stress or anxiety. And then benefits in other realms too, such as, you know, musculoskeletal health and healthier weight status. Symptoms of ADHD might be better for children after they spend time in nature. So, yeah, what’s really an amazing thing about, you know, we as pediatricians, we can prescribe so many different types of treatments, but the cool thing about nature time is that there’s evidence that it can prevent a whole range of health problems and in some cases even be part of the treatment for other health conditions.

SANDY: It’s so fascinating to me that this is a topic because it seems like it would be common sense that we should play, kids should play in order to learn. And I know, Dr. Glassy, you want to chime in, but just, one of the things that I’d like you both to address is what do you think has caused this change that we need to be reminded that being outside is so beneficial to our children’s health and well-being?

DR. GLASSY: Well, I would say just that there has been such an explosion of electronics and also the idea in parenting that you really need to expose your children to so many things that they get scheduled out as well. When we started to bring these messages to the pediatricians and they then, all of us then to our families, what we were hearing back is,  you know, nobody would say no to going outside necessarily, but there’s all these competing things. And so, really trying to understand the barrier of time, being able to find the time to catch a little nature. And so learning what are the tricks that other families have come to. What about communities? Is there a community solution like, you know, making your schoolyard or your childcare more nature influenced. Whether you, we have, you know, a lot of rain in the northwest and it’s, but it’s little spitty rain. It’s not that deluge that some places get, but families often say, “Well, we’re not going to go out. It’s rainy again, blah, blah, blah” and really thinking about the kinds of equipment and clothing that you would wear to be comfortable in, in all kinds of weather. And safety, safety was the third one that really said, you know, parents were concerned about sending their children to the park or sending them outside to play. Going to the park and finding out that it made you uncomfortable, perhaps because they’re, you just didn’t feel safe there. Or there were, in our area, just east of the city, there’s a, sometimes of the year, a lot of bears around, even in people’s yards. And so wild animals or whatnot. So, really kind of thinking about the barriers that are keeping people from choosing it, but also really head on the time and helping families think about prioritizing nature and nature time, and maybe whittling down some of those other commitments or, you know, screen time to eke out that time. Dr. Tandon likes to talk about your extended families as well. Maybe DR. TANDON, you can pick it up there.

DR. TANDON: Yeah, I mean, I’ll say that I think families, you know, they’re trying their best. Most families want the best for their children. They want to have their children be healthier. But there are so many competing priorities. And so we are really just trying to elevate the idea that, like, bring back, like you said, you know, I think it’s something that our grandparents and ancestors and in most cultures knew that spending time in nature is good for us and, you know, the fresh air and all of that. But, you know, how do we bring that back into childhood when there are so many competing priorities? And we try to, you know, problem solve with families and share solutions we’ve learned and one of them is really thinking about not just the parents. Like what is that village that you know I think maybe that’s a cultural shift to societal shift that’s happened that a lot of parenting is left into a nuclear unit and if we can lean on our neighbors and our grandparents and our teachers and others to really think about, you know, when are those possibilities when children could spend time in nature and it doesn’t always have to be with their nuclear family.

DR. AMY: So I want to differentiate here between the importance of physical activity and the importance of time in nature. Because there’s a huge difference here, right? And so you talk a lot about, well, they can coincide, right? And time in nature can lead to physical activity outside, right? But can you talk a little bit about what’s happening at the cellular level? What’s happening at the hormonal level? Like when we put our bare feet in the grass, what is that doing for us? I mean, you mentioned, you know, there are Nordic cultures who let their babies take a nap every day outside, no matter the temperature, they just wrap them up warmly, you know, and there are those of us in America going, “What? There’s no way!” And so what, like, why do we want this for our kids? 

DR. TANDON: Yeah, I mean, that’s really a question of like mechanism. And so I’m going to put on that science brain here and answer that a little bit in the sense of like, okay, so you’re saying that nature is good for kids. Like, why is it? And, and there’s probably so many different, there are many different reasons and pathways that have been proposed and one of them is physical activity. So when children are outdoors, when any of us are outdoors, we’re more likely to be moving than we are when we’re indoors. And that’s one way because we know movement is good for us. It gets our heart pumping, our bones and muscles moving. And that’s one way that we can experience benefits just because we’re likely to move when we’re outdoors. But you’re right. You can move in a gym on a treadmill, you know. But there are other ways. And I think part of that includes things like the access to, you know, what’s in nature. So there’s this idea of forest bathing and scientists have studied this. So when you’re surrounded by trees or immersed in nature, you’re being exposed to the essentially like the essential oils, these organic compounds that the trees released to fight off, you know, infections for themselves that when we inhale them, they actually boost our immune system. So there’s evidence that there’s sort of this boost to our immunity that are, there’s this kind of idea of attention restoration that our brain only has so much capacity to take in information and when we are in nature, especially an immersive nature experiences, our brain capacity is sort of restored. And that’s probably the reason for many of the mental health and cognitive benefits. And, you know, usually as children, you’re not in nature by yourself. So young children may be there with, you know, caring adults, family members, other children may be there with peers or you know, intergenerational. And so there’s that social capital, the social piece of that. There’s increasing evidence that’s good for our health. So I think there’s sort of these different pathways, you know, better air quality, reduction of noise pollution. So many different ways that being in nature could be good for us, including the movement and the immune system and social capital. 

DR. GLASSY: Yeah, you know, those are many of the things that research is actually quantified and verified for us. But also, as parents, we need that restorative time. We need that fresh air. We need that change in venue.  Dr. Tandon mentioned that, you know, that she felt like she, it was easier to parent two very active young boys outside. And so nature also is a spectacular and onducing setting to be a parent in and expose your child to as well. So it’s not as, as quantified in the research, but your child has so many tasks that they’re doing as they get their new developmental milestones, they grow their social emotional resilience. All of that just seems to be enhanced when you’re doing that kind of parenting, exposing your children that way, promoting those developmental milestones in the setting, in a natural setting. And, you know, we use it very broadly. That might be this beautiful, you know, spectacular view with trees and whatnot, or you, it may be a rooftop terrace or the collection of plants you have in your apartment or whatever. Go ahead, DR. TANDON.

DR. TANDON: Yeah, I was going to speak to this idea of green exercise. So there is research that, for example, if you run on a treadmill compared to running on a trail that’s in nature. So there’s, that physical activity might be the same, but they found that the sort of adjunct benefits to kind of your mental health, to your restorative capacity is higher when you’re in a natural setting. And most of those studies are in in adults. But to kind of more directly answer your question about, you know, you can move in a lot of different places and in a lot of different ways. But when you’re in nature, there’s evidence that there’s something extra happening to your, that benefits your mental health. 

DR. AMY: So is there any evidence to support what we’re seeing about this idea of grounding this idea of when we are, When our feet are on the beach, when our feet are in bare grass, is there any evidence to support that? We see this on social media all the time, right? “Oh, I feel so much better now that I’m grounded,” right? Like, what, speak to that.

DR. GLASSY: I was hoping Dr. Tandon would jump in. I’ve been asked this question many times, and I think in the medical literature, there’s not been a study design that would tell us the idea that grounding has electrophysical properties that impart to you. But there’s lots of evidence that taking that moment and being mindful of what you’re feeling and where you’re at does impart a calm and serenity and peace in the, you know, capital P kind of sense that is definitely affecting the neurotransmitters in your brain and in a way that lasts a little bit longer. And then when you’re in the trees and the phytoncides, the chemicals that Dr. Tandon was talking about, when you’ve breathed those in as well,  those effects on your brain, your nervous system last for a month afterwards. The studies in Japan are crazy about lowered blood pressure and cortisol, your stress hormones and whatnot. So, it’s not that, it’s hard to say what that mindful moment when you are putting bare feet on something, is it just being mindful and taking in the nature that we have been able to study? Or is it something different that we haven’t been able to study?  Dr. Tandon, do you have anything to add to that?

DR. AMY: So, I read this fascinating study. It’s been at least a decade, but it was by Tracy Alloway and her husband, who’s a physiologist. She’s a psychologist. And so it was a memory—a study on working memory. And so she compared running barefoot on the beach with running in shoes on a treadmill and the ability to remember. And so the group that actually ran barefoot on the beach was able to recall more items than the group that ran in shoes on the treadmill. And I was so—and NIH actually funded that study and I was so fascinated because I thought, “Well, what are we actually going to do with that information?” But it is fascinating. And so then it does make me go, “What is the mechanism of action there?” Right. And so there’s something happening. There’s something happening. 

DR. TANDON: And I, and I think, you know, a lot of these studies are not easy to do. And I think that’s why. So sometimes when we don’t have a sort of scientific evidence for something, it’s not that it doesn’t exist. It’s just that either that study hasn’t been done or those, you know, those measures are hard to capture. And, and as you can imagine, certainly in children, there’s extra levels of complexity in doing this research. So some of those things I think just we don’t have the evidence for but it may be that it just hasn’t been done in the way for us to understand it yet.

DR. AMY: Sure.

DR. GLASSY: And, and I don’t think it’s, I think it’s good to think about things in a different way, just this topic of nature and child health is a completely different lens to look at child health, well-being, and development for pediatricians. It’s been around forever but it’s just a different lens and it’s always good to, I think, keep your mind open to slicing this idea of growing the best humans we can in a different way. Because that may motivate and help the process. 

SANDY: Yeah, Dr. Glassy, let’s go back to what you were talking about, about developmental milestones and how being in nature helps families promote that. What does that look like at different ages and stages for parents?

DR. GLASSY: Yeah, as a pediatrician with my, you know, 30 plus years helping families with their kids and watching their, having the privilege to watch their developmental milestones, I love it. As I did as a parent too. The child that is taking those first few steps and falling and doing it for a while and getting frustrated and going to something else, but coming back and then the next day going farther. That’s so fascinating to watch. And we do know that there’s a role for parents to play in promoting that. Kids left alone don’t develop the same way that kids who are interacted with. So the example of language, the more you talk to a baby, the better and more complex and earlier their language and language and communication skills develop. And so nature gives you this exquisite backdrop to promote that. “Oh, look at the clouds. Those fluffy white things are blowing. Do you feel that wind on your cheek?” There’s so many words you’re using there. And the baby is relating to them in ways that they might not indoors. So bringing along the language. And then for children who maybe have are not really loving school. I’m going to jump to an older age. We feel real strong that infants, newborns need to get outside and you need to be interacting with them physically and verbally and whatnot. But, of course, your older child who maybe is perhaps struggling with their writing. “What should I write about? I don’t like to write. It hurts my hand.” A change in venue. Get outside and have that, give them a fun decorated piece of paper or notebook and go and color or draw. Ask them what they’re drawing about and then ask them to describe it and then say, “Could you write those words on there too?” I mean there’s just so much more you can do to promote that development. And the third one of course, Is healthy, resilient children need to have strong social-emotional skills. And your interaction with your child in nature that promoting your relational health, nature makes it easier. There’s less conflict. There’s more interest. There are more shared interests. As you get into the teen years, you’re scrambling  to find that common ground. Nature can often provide that.

SANDY: Would you include like, you know, a safe risk-taking component to it and building confidence and in their skills and abilities as they grow as well?

DR. TANDON: Yes. A hundred percent. And I think part of that is the motor skill piece. So, you know, we talked about language and fine motor and social emotional, but gross motor skills are another, I think, you know, way that being in nature can help children of all ages. So even thinking about, you know, a kid playing on a plastic play structure, which is the most common, you know, commonly found in playground. And everything is equidistant and predictable and maybe it’s exciting the first few times, but especially if that’s in your, you know, your preschool or schoolyard. There’s not a lot that you can do to vary that up or to advance your motor skills. But then, you know, imagine a log, you know, a 2-year-old trying to balance themselves on a log or jump from, you know, one rock to another. The mode, running, running in sort of that open space and picking up speed in ways that you can’t indoors. Balancing. So, so many of those, and they’re called fundamental movement skills, like that’s literally the word, or, you know, developing physical literacy is possible in ways outdoors and in nature when things are less predictable, when there are, we call them “loose parts.” When you can play with pinecones and sticks and grass and create things and bring in your creative elements, the motor skill opportunities is immense. And riskier than often than indoors, right? So, so when you’re, when a little one’s trying to climb onto a log and maybe it’s a little slippery and the rock is a little higher than they’ve gone on before, can they make that jump, you know, across a puddle? And so, you know, and we think and people have studied this that small amounts of age-appropriate risk, you know, maybe initially with adult guidance and then stepping away are important. I mean, children have to take risks. They have to take physical risks, intellectual risks, their whole lives. And what a wonderful way to help prepare them for that. So I think that they’re, yeah, the movement and the risk taking is a really important part of their development.

DR. GLASSY: I like that because it also grows their confidence that something scary or perhaps bad, they fell six times. Do they really want to try that again? They have to make that decision and do it and then feel good about it. So there’s so many life skills that are, that start with that kind of curated risky play. But all these things we’ve been talking about is how you can parent like a list. You’re doing these things with your kids outside. I also want to put a plug for “free play” in here. Because creativity and learning to manage boredom and all these other life skills we know are really important for kids to have uncurated, unadult-directed time so they can let their imaginations go, creativity grow, manage the risk on their own, you know, again, curated way. So free play, please remind your listeners that even though we have all these suggestions for what they should be doing with their children outside, simply just letting them loose in a safe, safe-ish environment in nature is just as important and probably every day need to have that free play time too.

DR. AMY: All right, so I want to go back to something that you just said about things being scary. So, quick story. One of my kids was scared of anything that flies, right? If it flies, it’s scary. And so one time, they went, he was about 5 and they went to the swimming pool in our neighborhood with the neighbors. And within 20 minutes she had brought him home and said he is terrified of the flies and would not engage. And so she dropped him off and went back to the pool with her kids. So how do we talk to kids about the scary things that are outside without scaring them, right? Like how do we, what does that language look like?

Just how do we talk to them about the fears about nature? 

DR. GLASSY: There are, in kids five and under especially, there are specific times when kids are known to be afraid. Remember stranger anxiety for that 9-month-old, or it comes back again the 15- to 18-month-old is, you know, “Stay away! Hands off!” And so, the answer to helping children through fear, maybe an irrational fear, we should probably preface, they should be afraid of some things, but maybe an irrational fear that you want to help them through depends on their age. So for a 5-year-old, verbal, can understand the future, can understand the past, that kind of preschool age, you would maybe in that case, I bet they were terribly disappointed that they couldn’t be at the swimming pool and clearly got the message that that mom, you know, was gonna go have fun without them. That’s what I would maybe address first is, is feelings of, “Wow, you must be so disappointed because you’re not at the pool with them and I know you’re so afraid of flies. And maybe we should talk about that.” And, and then you have to listen. You really have to know if they’re ready for it. Because as you know, in psychology, sometimes revisiting your traumas is just more traumatizing, and sometimes it’s a growth opportunity. So you have to really listen and engage, and maybe it’s not right then, maybe it’s tomorrow that you talk about it again. But then, little by little, reading books about kids, certainly from a safe distance, maybe through the window, talking about what’s a fly, what’s a bee, looking at maybe videos of kids and beekeepers and things. My granddaughter was afraid. She got her first bee sting and then every little insect that was flying around her, she would be shrieking and having a lot of problem being outside. But gradually through talking about that and differentiating and understanding even when bees were near, to be on alert. But really just take a beat, she got there and it was little by little. And my son and daughter-in-law listening to her and talking about it. DR. TANDON, I bet you have some stuff to add. 

DR. TANDON: I think you covered, you covered it really. But I guess the way I was thinking of is really understanding what about it is making them worried. Sometimes, I think, you know, we imagine what it is that’s, you know, bothering a child. But until we ask, we don’t know for sure. And often it’s easier than we thought. And then, you know, we talk in the book about, you know, being in nature doesn’t have to look like the same thing for everyone. And so, you know, there may be ways to avoid flying things for a period of time and finding other opportunities to spend time in nature. Or finding a reason to be there, you know, if it’s a friend’s birthday celebration or going as children get older, their peer group becomes so much more important. And so sometimes having a, you know, a friend, kind of convince them to come along, uh, might help get, have them get over their fears or their concerns. 

DR. AMY: So we need to take a break and let Sandy read a word from our sponsor. And when we come back, I just want you to give our listeners some tips on what to do indoors to bring nature inside, especially, you know, I live in Colorado where it snows nine months out of the year. So there are many times where it’s, our nature is covered up. And so, what can parents do when, you know, being outside isn’t an option all year. When we come back. 

SANDY: Aaron’s dream is to play lacrosse at a division one university, but he was struggling so much academically that he worried it might not happen, but things changed after he completed cognitive skills training at LearningRx. He became independent in managing his assignments and homework and studying for exams. His grades improved so much that he was accepted into his dream high school to play lacrosse. His mom says, “Tutoring is a bandaid. It’s not really going to fix the underlying issues. LearningRx has just been a complete lifesaver.” While your child may or may not achieve these same results, LearningRx would be happy to work with you to get answers about your child’s struggles with learning. Get started at LearningRx. com or head to our show notes for links to more helpful resources. 

DR. AMY: Again, I love hearing those success stories, Sandy. Thanks for sharing that. So, talk to us a little bit about how we can bring nature indoors and have some green experiences inside and how it doesn’t always have to be outdoors. Or if I’m wrong, tell me. 

DR. TANDON: I can start first with the part about, you know, if it’s snowing nine months out of the year or around here in the northwest, it’s raining nine months of the year or, you know, heat in other parts of the country. So weather is one of the biggest challenges we hear about. And I think moving indoors is one part of the strategy, but I would also encourage, you know, outdoor time in ways that fit the, fit the weather. And I think it is possible year-round in most settings. And that might mean, you know, making sure you’re bundled up. There’s that idea that there’s no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing or, you know, preparation or something. So I think that if you’re bundled up and often, you know, we’ve talked to teachers who are preschool, like nature, nature school teachers where children are outdoors for the entire day regardless of the weather. And they talk about that, like being geared up in the right way, taking breaks, taking, you know, water breaks, if it’s too hot, being in the shade, coming indoors when, you know, when it is getting too hot or too cold. So that would be part one is to really think about what are the fun things that you can do in the snow or, you know, in the rain, but while staying, you know, safe and healthy. And then, you know, indoors, you know that the easiest one is bringing plants indoors in terms of, you know, having potted plants and what a great way to work with the little one on talking about seeds and growing food and caring for a plant. And so that would. Be one thing is actually growing the plant. Another one would be bringing nature from outside indoors. And so that might be, you know, going outside and collecting leaves if you know, if they, in the autumn, if that’s something that’s a seasonal change in your area. Pressing flowers, bringing in rocks and painting them, creating different sorts of crafts. Journaling and, ou know, drawing pictures of what’s visible from your window or from a porch or a deck and looking at the clouds, looking at the sky.  Those are some ideas that, that come to mind. DR. GLASSY, I’m sure you have others that, that you have to share.

DR. GLASSY: Yeah, I think also don’t limit yourself to daytime kind of observing nature through the window. The nighttime sky is, is important and being outside at night as well. It’s, I think, getting kids outside at night and making them comfortable about observing through their other senses. Like, what do we smell at night? Does it smell different? What do we hear? Maybe even starting to study the stars or the moon, the moon’s phases, constellations, you know, depending on the age of the kid. And then, of course, you can do a lot of that just from your window. So that’s another way to not limit yourself to what we usually think of as two in the afternoon at the park as your nature time. Or some immersive camping experience, you know, that’s what springs to people’s mind, but really, it’s going to be way more accessible. If you free yourself to think about nature and all these ways. Dr. Tandon was the one who knew of a grandma who would get scoop up snow and bring it in and a big bucket for kids to play with indoors because the grandma couldn’t go outside when it was snowy and icy. So, you know, again, be creative, and I’m sure that’s about a tenth of the things that people can do that we’ve just talked about.

DR. AMY: All right, so I have two questions. One, can you talk a little bit about the benefits of having your hands in soil? I think you mentioned something about that in the book. And so, obviously you can have your hands in soil inside as well if you’re doing urban gardening or indoor gardening. So that’s question number one. And then question number two is, Dr. Tandon, you mentioned, breathing those essential oils from the trees. Do you get that same benefit from bottled essential oils, diffusing them? Two questions.

DR. TANDON: Yeah, I’ll take the second one first. You know, I do not, I don’t think I could speak to the evidence on the bottled essential oils. I mean, the studies on the forests and phytoncides are, have been done in forests. And so I would say that the best way or the most convincing evidence on the benefits to the immune system, because it does need to be, I would say immersive in a way, it’s probably going to come from being in a forest.

DR. GLASSY: And just before you go on, essential oils, sometimes those diffusers are sending out a little spray of oil that for little kids, especially they’re breathing so much faster than us and their lungs are so much smaller that they’re getting irritated linings of their lungs and it can be harmful to them. So, yeah, I’d go outside if you want some essential oils with a little child. Go ahead.

DR. AMY: I just know that we’ll have listeners that would have thought that when you said it. And so I wanted your expert opinion then for them.

DR. TANDON: No, no, that’s a good, good clarifying point. And then to the part about the soil, so, you know that I would say, you know, there are some people have written about this idea that part of the reason there’s this idea of the hygiene hypothesis, like part of the reason that there are more, you know, allergies and immune system problems and people today is because our environments have become too sterile that children are growing up without the exposure to the, you know, the microbes and things that help build our immune system from a young age. And so when we think about it in that way, okay spending time outdoors. So not necessarily, I would say, right, or, you know, I, I don’t think I could put a specific study about hands and soil specifically, but just this idea that spending time in nature there’s some that, you know, spending time on farms or on animals, sort of being in the natural environment may be important for building up our immune system and our immunity and sort of the natural way that our body can fight off infections. And then when we don’t get that, maybe that’s part of the theory of why there are more immune system problems. You know, as far as that happening indoors, so I think that’s, you know, a plausible theory that if you are getting that same sort of exposure to natural environments, and it’s indoors that it probably also can confer benefits,  And that made me think of one other thing that we get sometimes asked about is this idea of virtual nature. Like does do images of nature or nature books, for example, you know, as when we think about being indoors and nature exposure, do they have benefits as well? And, you know, I think the evidence is still, I would say, unclear on that, although there are studies where they’ve looked at VR, like virtual nature in adults and like, for example, somebody who, because of their physical limitations may not be able to physically, you know,  go to a national park or something that and then when they’re still seeing it on a VR headset it evokes certain emotions and certain benefits that, you know, either make them think of their childhood or the restorative benefits of nature. So I, I think, you know, our thoughts on this are real outside nature is better. Like we want children and families to spend outside their time outside as much as possible. And there probably are some benefits that come from virtual nature or images of nature. There are studies that looking at nature through windows, for example, is beneficial, sharing books with nature. So it’s better than nothing. And so we would still encourage, you know, families that if there are barriers or challenges to getting outdoors, to do what you can indoors, even if it’s, you know, sharing a book about nature or looking at pictures of nature, but when possible, get outside.

DR. GLASSY: I think there’s, it’s worth mentioning one more thing about getting your hands dirty and growing a garden, whether it’s indoors or outdoors. And that is, you remember how frustrating it is when your child refuses to eat what you’ve just put in front of them. Everybody experiences that. And some kids are really turned off by, of course, vegetables.

So, the studies are overwhelmingly positive in that if the child helped grow the vegetable, they’re more likely to try them. So it, what another great parenting hack there to get your kids to eat a little more veggies. And if the only space you have to do that gardening and getting your hands dirty and doing that, get their kids into working on that is indoors, great, why not?

DR. AMY: Yeah, we had raised gardens when my kids were little and they loved helping plant those vegetables, tend those vegetables, harvest those vegetables, and, of course, prep and eat those. So I can absolutely attest to, “Hey, I helped make that, right? And so, of course, I want to eat it!” My, like, my middle kid was such a picky eater that he would have never tried a pepper had he not grown it himself. And so, absolutely, I love that recommendation.

DR. AMY: So we are nearly out of time. What would you like to say to our listeners that you haven’t gotten to say?

DR. GLASSY: I would just say, we know how busy your day is, but we hope we’ve convinced you a little bit about maybe some of the areas that you are spending your time in with your children, you can maybe do outdoors and get the double benefit of outdoor nature exposure and your parenting out there. And that, uh, to remember to lean on your people around you and your community and fight for those green spaces in your area where you can, on your yeah, your childcare, your schoolyards, your community parks, cause we all could use that, including you parents.

DR. TANDON: And I’ll say that we think that everyone belongs in nature. We think that everyone deserves that opportunity. And so children, parents, grandparents need to find what that means for them. And it doesn’t have to look the same. It can be just your back yard or it could be, you know, camping in a national park, but find what that means for you. Take little steps to maybe expanding what nature time means for your family. And yes, definitely lean on your friends and your nature allies and nature mentors to help make that possible. 

DR. AMY: And if our listeners want to follow more of your work, where can they find you? 

DR. GLASSY: We have, of course our book is coming out October, after October 15th. That’s going to be available in most places where you get a book. But also ProjectNatureWA.com is where we’ve put resources for the families whose pediatricians are trying to send this message more. And from there, there’s many other links to national groups that are helping families get out in nature. You’ll, I think you’ll find in our book too, tons, tons of resources.

DR. AMY: Yeah, absolutely. So listeners, we will put a link to projectnaturewa.com in our show notes, along with a link for you to purchase “Digging Into Nature; Outdoor Adventures for Happier and Healthier Kids” in our show notes as well. So, Dr. Danette Glassy, Dr. Pooja Tandon, thank you so much for being with us today. We really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to share these exciting insights from your practices, from your experience, and from your book. Listeners, thank you for being with us today. If you like us, please pull out your phones right now and follow us on Instagram and Facebook at the Brainy Moms. If you like our show, we would love it if you would leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple podcasts. If you would rather see our faces, we are on YouTube at the Brainy Moms, and you can find Sandy demonstrating cognitive skills on TikTok at the Brain Trainer Lady. Look, that is all the smart stuff we have for you today so we’re going to catch you next time.

DR. GLASSY: Thank you so much. Bye.  DR. TANDON: Bye.